Residential Grade Material

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If I was an inspector, all I would ever look for is staple distances that are within 1/32" of 12.000000" (that was for Don) :)

Oops... better get a new tape, this one is only good for accuracy of 1/16th, guess I'll have to approximate.:rolleyes:
 
kingpb said:
#1. I thought you said quick.... :)
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Heehee. You probably don't want to know this, but back in the late 80s I took a graduate seminar on Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason". Kant is (was) probably the most overbearing absolutist on the philosophical landscape, and my response at the end of that semester only took 62 pages. And it still wasn't long enough.

So yeah, a few short paragraphs on a NEC forum is very quick, by my standards. :)


kingpb said:
#2. Your assumption that this is my philosophy is inaccurate. Simply becasue I took a specific position and posed an argument for a debate, doesn't mean that this is my principle.
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In any debate, when you voice a viewpoint as if it's yours and you try to defend it, it's yours during that debate whether you really believe it or not.

And this is, after all, a debate. :)

kingpb said:
#3. I'm still waiting for the NEC definitions of minor and major. (yawn, I think I'll be waiting a while)
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I settled that issue in the last inning. What ballpark were you in? :)
 
A minor code violation is a deviation from the code as written that the average reasonable electrician would conclude is not really significant......until someone dies as a result. At which point everyone will realize that it was in fact it was a major violation. *grin*

The electrical code is written in black and white. It is enforced as though it has grey areas.

Such grey areas are totally reasonable, and the code _could_ be written with such grey areas explicitly in place. The book would be 3x thicker, and would miss the point. Which do you want: a 12" measurement, or a 12" measurement along with allowable tolerance values and statistical requirements for meeting those tolerance values.

Most engineering specifications are written with both the required dimensions and the permitted tolerance on those dimensions. The real world is not exact, and any absolute requirement for being exact _must_ fail. So you must either specify the allowable tolerance, or you have to trust on the spot human judgement for how much tolerance is to be permitted.

Just to pick one example from the code: parallel conductors. Has anyone here ever installed parallel conductors? Are they permitted in the code? How carefully did you make certain that the parallel conductors were _exactly_ of the same length, material and diameter? Code makes no allowances for the impossibility of _exactly_ matching two conductors. A proper analysis of the physics of the situation could give tolerance bounds that were acceptable, answering the question 'what difference in length really makes no significant difference in conductor heating', but this analysis is not in the code; instead a much simpler prohibition against deviation is what the code actually says.

The 12" requirement at least can be reliably met in black and white: 12" is a hard limit, and you aim for a bit less. But exact match between two conductors is _impossible_ to meet. Yet that is how the code is written.

-Jon
 
jwelectric said:
In your mind where does minor become major?
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I would think by my post that would be fairly obvious.

I would love the opportunity to inspect a few of the jobs your company has performed. Do you think I would find any code violations? How about after the job has been sheetrocked? Would it be worth while to tear the job apart to find a pipe strap over 3' from a box? By your logic, the answer would be yes. Hmm.

This is a useless debate, and I'll refrain from any further responses. Some people need to get a life.
 
winnie said:
Just to pick one example from the code: parallel conductors. Has anyone here ever installed parallel conductors? Are they permitted in the code? How carefully did you make certain that the parallel conductors were _exactly_ of the same length, material and diameter?
-Jon
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Yes, Yes, They were the same length because they both started at location A and ended at location B and the took the same path. They were the same type of cable and AWG.
 
kingpb said:
Section 334.30 states: Nonmetallic sheathed cable shall be supported and secured...within 12" of every outlet box, junction box, cabinet, or fitting.
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Yes, but is that from the box to the nearest part of the staple crown, the far edge, or the center line? And for that matter, which part of the box: the clamping device or the outer surface surrounding the KO?

Just kidding, of course, but there are always variables that reach into the realm of rediculousness if one wishes to stretch it that far. Some of you guys are real pips, but I still enjoy the banter, so keep it up.

By the way, Don, even 12.001 exceeds 12. The only place I've seen your halfway tolerance was at a radio station visit we took in the Radio Club in high school. The always announce the time to the nearest minute; 31 seconds after the minute was called the next minute.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Larry,

No. 12.001 exceeds 12.000, but it does not exceed 12.
Don
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Don,

What is the reference in the NEC that describes the above 'significant figures' convention.

I agree that it is a very common convention to use in the sciences, and that any digits to the right of the 'significant digits' are just 'random noise'. But this is just a convention, and other conventions could apply.

The example given above of 17.6 years of age _not_ being 18 years of age is a pretty clear example of this. When 'the law' requires that you be 18 years old, they mean 18 years to the day or more, not 18 years to the half year.

I don't think that there is any description of the tolerances or rounding of length measurements for inch measurements in the NEC. I do recall seeing a reference to some standards document for _SI_ measurements, so one could probably find some guidance there, but if we are looking at SI measurements, then the cable support requirement is 300mm...now is that +-1mm, +-10mm, or +-50mm :)

-Jon
 
I have learned one from this thread and I owe it to all that have posted.

Lesson learned;
It is possible to install a non compliant pretty job and not be a HACK.
It is impossible to install a sloppy compliant job without being a HACK.

With all but a couple the members of this form will trade out beauty for compliance.

The one thing I love about NC is that our code officials are SWORN to enforce the NEC without prejudice or bias and any violation is a violation hack or no hack.
 
Mike, you know I have a lot of respect for you. Are you saying that all of the jobs in NC are performed without any NEC violations?

I'd love to follow you on your inspections for a day to witness that.
 
jwelectric said:
The one thing I love about NC is that our code officials are SWORN to enforce the NEC without prejudice or bias and any violation is a violation hack or no hack.
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If your trying to say they red tag every violation they see and that they see every violation, than no matter how much respect for you I have I must say that is a load of ..

Cops are judges are also "SWORN' to enforce the law, I guess I should leave it at that.
 
I just read through this thread, and to comment on the original comment, to be competitive in the resedential field, speed has to be part of it, I feel. This does NOT mean comprimising safety one iota. IMO, the Code is about SAFETY-please see 90.1. Yes, neatness counts, but I can be neat AND fast-not anal neat, but neat. After 16 years, I can drill hole in a straight line without wasting time with a chalk line. If that is what someone wants to do, go for it, just remember TIME=MONEY. Superduper neat is great, don't get me wrong, but can't be profitable doing tract housing. Doing the big customs, on the other hand, it might be just the neat. When I do something like that, I do slow down a bit and be even neater than usual, but the big builders like Ryan, Ryland etc have no intrest in anything except doing it fast and cheap. (can't stand doing thier stuff, personally) But it still needs to be safe.
I think what I am tring to say, is that it MUST be a safe instalation, but a good electrician can be both fast and neat.
BTW, I would NEVER EVER move another trades work I.E. redoing plumbing. If some one moves my work, I WILL backcharge. If you are not an electrician, keep your hands off my work!!!!
 
I have certain amount of suspicion about those who claim they always do neat and code compliant work.
 
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