Residential Wiring Practices

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Quality or Quanity?

Quality or Quanity?

I am having a tough time keeping my cool reading this thread. Lot's of you are ready to fight to get others to accept your opinion. Let me give you mine.
I have had guy's who did work I was never embarrased to let the client see. And other's who did the job, were fast, and was to code, but I tried real hard to keep anyone from seeing it. You realize of course that was considered every time someone was given a job - how much the quality, the craftsmanship, or whatever you wish to call it was visible to the client, the public, a competitor!
I am not saying both types were not good electricians. But I was brought up to appreciate top quality craftsmanship - and neat does count - even if it is hidden and you can not see it.
I would not run wires at angles, "unless necessary". If someone cut a wire to short I would not stretch it.... I would pull new.... an exception could and would be made "if necessary" But it would not make me a happy camper.
The extra cost would come out of my pocket - not the electrician - and not the client.
When all is done, I want to see the client, homeowner, or whoever. to be
happy with the workmanship, and the price he paid. If, and that is a hugh IF, he does not realize the quality of what he got, for what he paid for, I'd just tell him to stop at a few jobsites and see what the work at those locations look like. The result of this quality work is a customer for life!
 
RHJohnson said:
When all is done, I want to see the client, homeowner, or whoever. to be
happy with the workmanship, and the price he paid. If, and that is a hugh IF, he does not realize the quality of what he got, for what he paid for, I'd just tell him to stop at a few jobsites and see what the work at those locations look like. The result of this quality work is a customer for life!
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The first thing I ask a customer when I am done, outside of rough-ins, is does the job look ok to them, "Are they pleased with everything." I beleive in neat workmanship, as do I think evreyone here. It is a sign of quality. To what extent you go to is a different story, and I also believe, as I think again everyone here does, that proffit and efficiency is the bottom line. You don't sacrifice proffit for excessive neatness. If you can't do both, you need to think your line of work, IMO. I can be a freak for my holes being lined up (I got ragged on for my drilling early on :D ), but if I can't be quick about it and find the shortest route w/o endangering the wire, my day is ruined. If the work is exposed, plan on it in the bid.
 
splinetto said:
Im going to ask my insp if he would fail my house if I pulled 3 wires in one hole, pulled wires diaginal, drilled holes un even and only used one staple at every box...Ill let you know what he says....
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What am I missing here?

"3 wires in one hole" -- no problem. What is the code violation? I'm with Marc on this one. See http://forums.mikeholt.com/showthread.php?t=89213

"pulled wires diagonal" -- ditto. I personally don't like to do it as it takes up more time to drill and pull, but where is the violation?

"drilled holes un even" -- this is highly subjective, to say the least.

"only used one staple at every box" -- How many staples are supposed to be at every box then... hrmmm... maybe I've misinterpreted what you mean by this one :smile:

I'm dying to know the codes the inspector cites, at least on the first three.

stickboy1375 said:
just my 2 cents on the subject, the ONLY reason I dill my holes in a straight line, is for ease of installation, I feel I can pull wire twice as fast pulling it straight, then trying to pull at all sorts of angles, and i'm sure my efficiency at pulling wire makes up any cost difference for extra material I may have used....
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Same is true for me... When replacing a panel I've had to go diagonal to create extra length on existing runs, but it's a real hassle to pull. Are we just dopes, or have others had the same issue and overcome it through experience or particular techniques that can be shared?
 
With asking the inspector I want to find out what he expects...I dont know were it originally started(doing ocd neat work) Is it something the insp requires or is it just how it has always been done here. Im sure he would be shocked if one of you all did a house here but I wonder what the outcome would be?
 
splinetto said:
Then why isnt compliant OK for exposed work??
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For the same reason that a plumber wouldn't use PEX:
SU-pex-pipe2.jpg


in a period bathroom:
CapeBathroom.jpg
 
480sparky said:
Or a period-era receptacle fed from a GFI in another bath
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With a "GFCI Protected" sticker, right? :grin:

As my local inspector says, "nobody enforces that".
 
480sparky said:
Enforces what?
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406.3(D)(3)(b) and 406.3(D)(3)(c)

It's a period bathroom after all... with exposed K&T.

Actually, that leads to a question, but I'll start a separate thread.
 
Spider Webbing

Spider Webbing

splinetto said:
The one hole for multiple wire topic got me thinking at work.(And Im apparently the only one on here that does that). Why do I run my wires horizontal and vertical with the framing members? It would be much faster to just pull them diaginal if need be. Not saying that I would even do it But does anyone here do it that way?
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Hi Splinetto,

Ran across this fine subject of wiring across town and for those who call it spider webbing may date themselves like I am doing. Yeh, I used to do diagonals until the GC told me to follow the grid or don't expect to get anymore work from him. He gave some good reasons that affected his schedule and complaints that slowed down the HVAC and insulation subs.

Even the plumbers who didn't get in their rough before I got there got miffed in bathroom crosstowns that got in their way. A couple of cut or banjo strung cables caused by other trade materials sent a message once or twice when the AHJ tagged the wiring.

Sure I saved a couple of feet but at the expense of losing jobs I got straightened out in a hurry. The transition from factory boy to residential is a big difference in every sense of how rope is pulled to how an AHJ can interprete code to send a message. Diagonal spiderwebbing can be a violation [334.30] and is not acceptable to many AHJ inspectors. Wiring requires protection [300.4] from in-wall physical damage that occurs from other trades trying to jamb their equipment into stud bays and joisting that has cross-town wiring.

Following the structure grid is a professional courtesy to other trades that depend on a strict stayout rule awareness and the speed to get jobs done on schedule. I used to think an electrician was the center of the universe until I got job training on paying attention to the overall picture and getting a consistent paycheck from the man. Sure there are occasional areas where a diagonal is needed, but in the long run (pardon the pun) I do not advise it from anyone in the industry. I hope this might help from a long time point of view. rbj
 
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I think this is more of a competition issue.. How could my shop bid a house and get it where the work is installed like that? And how could any shop in an area that allows that kinda work expect to get work if they have to add time to the house to wire it the way I think is right? Im not the type of guy who tries to see what I can get past the inspector, more of the when are you going to require me to do more...
 
gndrod said:
Hi Splinetto,

Ran across this fine subject of wiring across town and for those who call it spider webbing may date themselves like I am doing. Yeh, I used to do diagonals until the GC told me to follow the grid or don't expect to get anymore work from him. He gave some good reasons that affected his schedule and complaints that slowed down the HVAC and insulation subs.

Even the plumbers who didn't get in their rough before I got there got miffed in bathroom crosstowns that got in their way. A couple of cut or banjo strung cables caused by other trade materials sent a message once or twice when the AHJ tagged the wiring.

Sure I saved a couple of feet but at the expense of losing jobs I got straightened out in a hurry. The transition from factory boy to residential is a big difference in every sense of how rope is pulled to how an AHJ can interprete code to send a message. Diagonal spiderwebbing can be a violation [334.30] and is not acceptable to many AHJ inspectors. Wiring requires protection [300.4] from in-wall physical damage that occurs from other trades trying to jamb their equipment into stud bays and joisting that has cross-town wiring.

Following the structure grid is a professional courtesy to other trades that depend on a strict stayout rule awareness and the speed to get jobs done on schedule. I used to think an electrician was the center of the universe until I got job training on paying attention to the overall picture and getting a consistent paycheck from the man. Sure there are occasional areas where a diagonal is needed, but in the long run (pardon the pun) I do not advise it from anyone in the industry. I hope this might help from a long time point of view. rbj
Click to expand...


We never rough before the other trades, it makes little to no sense to do that there are always ways for us to get wires where they need to go HVAC and Plumbing is a much different animal. I have been examining pictures from rough ins that we have done since this topic came up and I was actually surprised how few diagonal runs we have even made though my first post would lead you to believe I have them running every where. I will say that we will do and will in the future continue to run diagonal through walls and across ceilings through attics and in crawls to save time money and material. in my opinion it only makes good practice to do so. I have never been questioned about it. i should add we haven't wired a single job to code. because they all exceed it in more than one way.
 
bikeindy said:
We never rough before the other trades, it makes little to no sense to do that there are always ways for us to get wires where they need to go HVAC and Plumbing is a much different animal.
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I don't like to wire before other subs, but do like to get my boxes, especially cans in before trunk lines and plumbing pipes cause me half day worth measuring and confrences because the layout is all messed up.
 
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