Ridiculous law WA L&I

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LarryFine said:
Then you should pursue the exact same pathway they did, especially with there being a precedent.
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There was two bills introduced into Washington Legislature after the visible ID requirement passed in 2009, neither of which came out of committee (IE did not get signed into law)
 
Cow said:
When the law changed, and now required us to wear licenses visible on our bodies, I can remember one of our guys piping up, after the inspector asked why he wasn't wearing a visible license. He asked why the inspector wasn't wearing his license where it was visible too??
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The requirement is to visibly display your certification when working in the electrical construction trade. Inspectors are not working and don't have to display.
 
RichB said:
My understanding was that it was to help stop unlicensed work by allowing the Inspector to see if you were licensed without having to ask for your card Which never really made sense to me as we can ask for a card anytime
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The original requirement was to have your certification in your possession, so having it locked in your glove box met the intent. The stated reason for the requirement was to enable the inspector to go on the job site and at a glance see who is certified, who the electricians are and the trainees are, journeylevel, specialty, and trainees have different colors on the cards. There were reports of too many trainees for the supervising electrician.
 
A few comments to the Original Poster. I used to instruct RCW/WAC update classes, so am familiar with the law and rule.
1. The law (RCW) was signed July 1, 2009. There were two bills introduced before with similar requirement then that didn't pass. There were two bills introduced after July 1, to delete the requirement that didn't pass.
2.L&I (AHJ) does not sponsor legislation, they only enforce what is in the law (RCW) or Rule (WAC). If you complain that is the answer you will get. For the original bill (SHB 2009), you can find all the comments and background at the WA Legislature Bill Tracking page, https://apps.leg.wa.gov/billinfo/, and find out who sponsored the bill.
3. The rules (WAC) were adopted March 2013.
4. It has been a very unpopular requirement....
5. I might suggest you keep track of the any pending legislation and WAC changes via the Electrical Currents, make a comment at the public comment stage
6. The chief electrical inspector is hosting a series of Stakeholders meeting find the schedule here:
http://www.lni.wa.gov/TradesLicensing/Electrical/files/currents/Elc1902.pdf. There may be few comments on the visible ID requirement, by now most of gotten used to it. It would be interesting to ask how the requirement has helped L&I.
 
tom baker said:
The requirement is to visibly display your certification when working in the electrical construction trade. Inspectors are not working and don't have to display.
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I'd still be asking him for some sort of credentials as well as verification of his identity before producing anything for him, at very least if it were first time we met.

tom baker said:
The original requirement was to have your certification in your possession, so having it locked in your glove box met the intent. The stated reason for the requirement was to enable the inspector to go on the job site and at a glance see who is certified, who the electricians are and the trainees are, journeylevel, specialty, and trainees have different colors on the cards. There were reports of too many trainees for the supervising electrician.
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And how does he verify the document displayed belongs to the individual "using it"? Or is that written into some of the finer print of the law?

Seems easy on a large project to check out "certification" first thing in morning along with PPE, tools, supplies, etc. as guys come onto job site.
 
kwired said:
Can one tattoo whatever certification is required on their chest, and when asked just lift their shirt and say "here you go".:cool:
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Sure, but having that license revoked could end up being a very painful experience. :ashamed1:
 
LarryFine said:
Sure, but having that license revoked could end up being a very painful experience. :ashamed1:
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Someday we will need to have a bar code or chip planted on us anyway - then person needing to identify you can just scan you and their device looks in database to find if you comply with whatever they may be looking for:blink::blink:
 
I’ve been asked twice to show a license. The first was when the Chief Electrical inspector asked for it when he happened to have the new State Director riding along. They both had a good chuckle at my expense when I couldn’t show it. I had already known the CEI for close to ten years by then and he knew very well who I was.
 
kwired said:
I'd still be asking him for some sort of credentials as well as verification of his identity before producing anything for him, at very least if it were first time we met.

And how does he verify the document displayed belongs to the individual "using it"? Or is that written into some of the finer print of the law?

Seems easy on a large project to check out "certification" first thing in morning along with PPE, tools, supplies, etc. as guys come onto job site.
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I haven't been cited but I would suspect the AHJ would show his ID. And yes there is a new rule moving forward that the electrican/worker must have a gov issued ID and present to the AHJ on request.

One other comment is the visible ID rule does not state how the certificate is displayed (which side out) nor that it has to be an original.
 
fix /QUOTE tag

fix /QUOTE tag

Fulthrotl said:
when california passed this, it was at the behest of
"collective bargaining units".
...
in truth only reason for this was to attempt
to reclaim work that they had freely given away over the
previous three decades, in an arrogant spate of entitlement.
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I agree. The union local on the east side of Washington is and has had a very small share of the market for as long as I’ve been doing this. My best guess is they had a big hand (ie; money) in getting this legislation through. I suppose unions are great in Seattle where there is lots of high rise projects that require very large crews but here in Spokane that is just not the case. I worked for ibew 73 several years ago and they couldn’t keep me busy so I went back to the open market. All that to say I don’t think it’s right that unions can manipulate legislation for thier benefit when it effects the rest of us so negatively.
 
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junkhound said:
FWIW, at least no catch 22 in WA-, not required to violate OSHA :eek:hmy:

good ol' mammy state here.... BTW, plumbers are 'encouraged' to wear......
OTOH, when I walk thru the gate of many companies worldwide the company or visitors badge is required to be visible. In EU they often require you to leave your passport (or color copy) at the company gate when on production area properties.
WAC 296-46B-940(3): The certificate may be worn inside the outer layer of clothing when outer protective clothing (e.g. rain gear when working outside in the rain, arc flash, welding gear, etc.) is required. The certificate must be worn inside the protective clothing so that when the protective clothing is removed, the certificate is visible. A cold weather jacket or similar apparel is not protective clothing.
The certificate may be worn inside the outer layer of clothing when working in an attic or crawl space or when operating
equipment (e.g. drill motor, conduit threading machine, etc.) where wearing the certificate may pose an unsafe
condition for the individual. The certificate must be immediately available for examination at all times. When working as
a certified electrician, the electrician must not display a training certificate. When supervising a trainee(s), the
supervising electrician’s certificate must be appropriate for the work being performed by the trainee(s).
Any person working as an electrician or trainee must also possess government issued photo identification and
immediately present that identification when requested by the inspector. Visibly displaying your certificate while
performing an electrical installation allows the public, customers,and other workers to have the knowledge that properly certified persons are the ones doing the work.

This type thinking is sometimes taken to extremes - a co-worker I was riding with got a traffic ticket at an air force base for not wearing his seat belt - he neglected to turn off the car engine when he removed his seat belt to get his wallet out for ID at the gate.
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Fort Lee was doing that in eighties for traffic and really got bad during the first desert storm bush snr
 
MDJ said:
All that to say I don’t think it’s right that unions can manipulate legislation for thier benefit when it effects the rest of us so negatively.
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But $$$ does that, and it does it anywhere folks bow to it. In 2011 yours truly was the 'native license' on the biggest job our state had. All 'shovel ready' funds. Our state's political leaders made multiple apperances to pat themselves on the back for it. Not one bureaucratic agency responsible for oversight busted a move, albeit they had every opportunity to do so...... My then AHJ quit over it. :rant:

Again, we can be lousy with codes & credentials , all worthless if not enforced.

~RJ~
 
ptonsparky said:
I’ve been asked twice to show a license. The first was when the Chief Electrical inspector asked for it when he happened to have the new State Director riding along. They both had a good chuckle at my expense when I couldn’t show it. I had already known the CEI for close to ten years by then and he knew very well who I was.
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When I was an apprentice and a former director was still an inspector, he asked to see my apprentice card. He then told my boss he didn't need to see his license because he wouldn't have gotten a permit for the job we were on if he didn't have a current license. Guys that use common sense and/or don't get a big head when they have a position of authority are slowly disappearing:(
 
kwired said:
When I was an apprentice and a former director was still an inspector, he asked to see my apprentice card. He then told my boss he didn't need to see his license because he wouldn't have gotten a permit for the job we were on if he didn't have a current license. Guys that use common sense and/or don't get a big head when they have a position of authority are slowly disappearing:(
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It was a permitted job and Frank was just screwing with me.
 
I thought about this a little more. I had two lanyards I wore on site.
As I mentioned before, one was my site safety passport. Photographic ID, passport number and company details.
The other was my Eaton ID. Again, photographic ID, company address, and business contact details.

No problem with either as far as I was concerned. The customer ought to know who is in his facility/property. Some of our customers were military/naval. Getting into Portsmouth dockyard was like getting into Fort Knox.
 
Besoeker3 said:
I thought about this a little more. I had two lanyards I wore on site.
As I mentioned before, one was my site safety passport. Photographic ID, passport number and company details.
The other was my Eaton ID. Again, photographic ID, company address, and business contact details.

No problem with either as far as I was concerned. The customer ought to know who is in his facility/property. Some of our customers were military/naval. Getting into Portsmouth dockyard was like getting into Fort Knox.
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I never worked on high security projects but did schools etc. Wear a tool pouch, act like you belonged there, and seldom if ever questioned who, what, why.

Where’s the girls locker rooms?

Second hall, right, two more, then left.

Always amazed me, even then.
 
ptonsparky said:
.

I never worked on high security projects but did schools etc. Wear a tool pouch, act like you belonged there, and seldom if ever questioned who, what, why.

Where’s the girls locker rooms?

Second hall, right, two more, then left.

Always amazed me, even then.
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Not sure you would by with that here. With events like the Sandy Hook disaster it surprises me too that you could there.

Most of the sites we went to were industrial. Paper mills, water pumping stations, anodising plants. For some, besides having the safety passport and other ID, you had to sit through a mandatory 30 minute site induction.

I can understand that.
 
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