SABC Load

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iwire said:
So if a home owner buys a cord connected under cabinet light and secures it to the cabinets the CMP says they have to run an extension cord out to the living room? :grin:
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You kind of left out the second part of that post where I said:
if you have to install a receptacle for a specific mounted in place appliance then it should not go on a SABC circuit, remember even appliances that a home owner can mount to a cabnet is still left up to the home owner where to put it, and your not installing a receptacle just for it.
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;)
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Bob I am confused and I am sure others are by what you are saying. Are you saying that I can install a sabc receptacle in the kitchen cabinet for the disposal? Or are you saying you can put a long whip on the disposal and plug it in above the counter when you need it?
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I think the only NEC argument that can be made is that located in the cabinet is not one of the places listed for SABCs
 
roger said:
Okay, let me get this straight, if I plug my table saw in to a SABC to do a kitchen remodel I am in danger of going to jail. Ain't this here a mess. ;) :grin:

Roger
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Not what I am saying at all.

In the real world homeowners can do whatever the heck they want as no one is watching.

What I am saying is that the NEC does apply past the outlets regardless of it being enforced or not.:)
 
charlie b said:
Somewhere early on the NEC states that its scope is limited to the installation of electrical equipment.
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Correct, 90.3(A).

However your view of what 'installed' means does not seem to me to match the NECs view of what 'installed' means.

It is my impression you reserve 'installed' for work that requires more than plugging a unit in.

Again looking at the NEC sections that apply to 'Flat irons' and 'window shaker' air conditioners it appears to the NEC if it is plugged in it is 'installed'.

I know this is not a popular view, it is not shared by Don either. But IMO the words in the NEC support my view and I submit that many people, after hearing 'the NEC stops at the outlets' for their entire career have come to accept it as fact much like many of the NEC myths we see on this forum.

Instead of accepting that the NEC applies past the outlets folks try to explain away the sections of the NEC that do apply to utilization equipment by saying things like 'those sections should not be there' 'those sections would not stand up in court' and the ever popular 'installed is more than plugging something in'. etc.:)



So when I said the NEC does not apply to a HO, I should have said that it does not apply to what the HO does with the outlets in the home.
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And I undestod what you meant and I agree with you as far as what really goes on but I disagree with you that the NEC does not apply to a homeowner plugging something in.

Just who does 210.21(B)(2) apply to? The electrician or the end user?

IMO both, even though it is not, and can not be enforced.
 
I am going to have to agree with Dennis. NEC 210.52(B)(2) limits the SABCs to serving only those outlets outlined in 210.52(B)(1), with a couple of exceptions that do not apply to the OP's question. NEC 210.52(B)(1) requires the SABCs to serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, or similar areas of dwelling units.

NEC 210.52(A) only focuses on the required receptacles for wall space. NEC 210.52(C) only focuses on the required receptacles to serve countertop surfaces. A receptacle installed under a countertop for a disposal is not a receptacle that is installed to meet the requirements of 210.52(A), it is not a receptacle that is installed to meet the requirements of 210.52(C), and it is not a receptacle that serves refrigeration equipment. It is merely a receptacle that installed to serve a specific appliance. Therefore, it would not be permitted to be served by one of the SABCs.

Although off topic, I am also going to have to agree with Charile that a fixed, cord-and-plug connected undercabinet light would be permitted to by plugged into a receptacle that is served by the SABC. The NEC does not limit what can be plugged into receptacles that are served by SABCs. It only limits which receptacles are permitted to be served by the SABCs.
 
jrohe said:
I am going to have to agree with Dennis. NEC 210.52(B)(2) limits the SABCs to serving only those outlets outlined in 210.52(B)(1), with a couple of exceptions that do not apply to the OP's question. NEC 210.52(B)(1) requires the SABCs to serve all wall and floor receptacle outlets covered by 210.52(A), all countertop outlets covered by 210.52(C), and receptacle outlets for refrigeration equipment in kitchens, pantries, breakfast rooms, or similar areas of dwelling units.
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I agree, As I stated I feel the above argument is the only one that prohibits using the SABC for the disposal, not the fact it is fixed in place but the fact the receptacle is not under the counter.


Although off topic, I am also going to have to agree with Charile that a fixed, cord-and-plug connected undercabinet light would be permitted to by plugged into a receptacle that is served by the SABC.
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I think we all agree with that. :)
 
So, after all these responses I wonder where Little George(the OP) stands on this issue. Have we convinced you? :grin:
 
Dennis Alwon said:
So, after all these responses I wonder where Little George(the OP) stands on this issue. Have we convinced you? :grin:
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I don't know, I do know my own kitchen has one 20 amp SABC that runs everything and my wife sometimes trips it when using an electric grill and the toaster oven. :grin:
 
iwire said:
I don't know, I do know my own kitchen has one 20 amp SABC that runs everything and my wife sometimes trips it when using an electric grill and the toaster oven. :grin:
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In our old house, my wife used to get shocked when she used our very old mixer and stood barefoot on the metal floor register. I fixed it by telling her not to stand on the grill. :grin: We finally trashed the mixer.
 
Actually i am in the middle of kitchen remodel in my own house. Guess what i just uncovered. A counter receptacle in a 2 gang box along with a switch for the disposal both on same circuit. Now while i know it is bad idea and a violation the fact remains that in the 11 years i have owned this place i never once had a problem with the breaker tripping. Usually all that is on that receptacle is a Mr coffee maker. At parties we often plug in a crock pot on this same receptacle. Receptacle and the disposal are the only loads on this circuit. I could correct this but why bother since it is working fine. Disposal is 1/2 HP.
How many here would fix this ? No permit, no inspection and really no hazard, just technically a violation.
 
Jim W in Tampa said:
How many here would fix this ? No permit, no inspection and really no hazard, just technically a violation.
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Forget it I am not fessing up to nothing. Personally I think the disposal should be allowed on any circuit simply because it would never trip the breaker for the short time that they are usually on.

I would not lose sleep over it.
 
iwire said:
Just who does 210.21(B)(2) apply to? The electrician or the end user? IMO both, even though it is not, and can not be enforced.
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IMO it applies to the designer (i.e., myself) and the electrician (i.e., yourself). One thing that you and I have in common is that some aspect of our licensing requirements includes the requirement that we comply with the code. A homeowner has no such requirement imposed upon them. The NEC is not merely unenforceable to the HO, it cannot be applied to a HO, no matter what words it contains. Nothing outside the book itself requires a HO to own a copy, or to comply with anything inside the book.

A code is not a "code," until some governmental body enacts it into law. There is a law in my state to the effect that the 2008 NEC applies to electrical installation work. The passage of that law is what caused the "NEC" to become "code" in this state. There is another law in my state to the effect that I, as a PE registered in this state, must comply with the NEC, in any electrical design work that I perform here. There is no law in my state that says that I, as a homeowner, must comply with the NEC.

That is the basis for my opinion on this subject. Essentially, the NEC is not an authority unto itself. The NEC does not and cannot say, "obey me." The NEC says, "here is a rule," and a governmental body says, "obey that rule." I know of no governmental body that has said "obey the NEC" to a homeowner.
 
charlie b said:
IMO it applies to the designer (i.e., myself) and the electrician (i.e., yourself). One thing that you and I have in common is that some aspect of our licensing requirements includes the requirement that we comply with the code. A homeowner has no such requirement imposed upon them. The NEC is not merely unenforceable to the HO, it cannot be applied to a HO, no matter what words it contains. Nothing outside the book itself requires a HO to own a copy, or to comply with anything inside the book.

A code is not a "code," until some governmental body enacts it into law. There is a law in my state to the effect that the 2008 NEC applies to electrical installation work. The passage of that law is what caused the "NEC" to become "code" in this state. There is another law in my state to the effect that I, as a PE registered in this state, must comply with the NEC, in any electrical design work that I perform here. There is no law in my state that says that I, as a homeowner, must comply with the NEC.

That is the basis for my opinion on this subject. Essentially, the NEC is not an authority unto itself. The NEC does not and cannot say, "obey me." The NEC says, "here is a rule," and a governmental body says, "obey that rule." I know of no governmental body that has said "obey the NEC" to a homeowner.
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Charlie, I understand what you mean, but you should clarify that you are talking about utilization of receptacles and not installation. HO have to follow NEC for installs if they do their own work. Again, I understand your intent.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Forget it I am not fessing up to nothing. Personally I think the disposal should be allowed on any circuit simply because it would never trip the breaker for the short time that they are usually on.

I would not lose sleep over it.
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Ten thumbs up for that post.
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