Sauna GFCI?

[JoeNorm]

The last barrel sauna I did the manual specifically said NOT to put the circuit on a GFCI. It did seem odd to me since they are designed for water to be poured on them

 

[Jaybone812]

I see no valid reason to require GFCI protection for hard wired equipment, but that boat has sailed in the NEC.

From what I’ve heard 625 of 2026 nec could require external gfci protection will be for all evse equipment both cord and plug connected and direct wired . I heard it made it through the first draft who knows if it will actually make it into the article when all is said and done but I’m hoping it doesn’t . Class A gfci protection does not agree with the internal ccid for GFPE


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[Jaybone812]

The last barrel sauna I did the manual specifically said NOT to put the circuit on a GFCI. It did seem odd to me since they are designed for water to be poured on them

The manufacturer can’t tell you specifically not to gfci protect their equipment. When they say their equipment is not gfci compatible they are saying do not install their equipment in a location that the nec will require you to provide gfci protection


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[don_resqcapt19]

From what I’ve heard 625 of 2026 nec could require external gfci protection will be for all evse equipment both cord and plug connected and direct wired . I heard it made it through the first draft who knows if it will actually make it into the article when all is said and done but I’m hoping it doesn’t . Class A gfci protection does not agree with the internal ccid for GFPE


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This is what the First Draft Report says:

625.54 Ground-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Personnel.
All receptacles and outlets installed for the connection of electric vehicle charging shall have ground-fault circuit-interrupter protection for personnel.

I have heard that the Second Draft will include SPGFCIs as well as GFCIs because GFCIs cannot be used at the supply voltages used with high capacity chargers.

 

[Jaybone812]

This is what the First Draft Report says:

I have heard that the Second Draft will include SPGFCIs as well as GFCIs because GFCIs cannot be used at the supply voltages used with high capacity chargers.

Not surprised about the second drafting adding SPGFCI to the rule , was surprised they didn’t include the SPGFCI protection for 150 plus volts to ground in the first draft


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[don_resqcapt19]

Not surprised about the second drafting adding SPGFCI to the rule , was surprised they didn’t include the SPGFCI protection for 150 plus volts to ground in the first draft


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Of course that is just from what happened at the second draft in person meetings. Anything that received a 50% + 1 vote at the meetings will be on the written ballot...it takes a 2/3s majority to pass a written ballot.

 

[kwired]

I see no valid reason to require GFCI protection for hard wired equipment, but that boat has sailed in the NEC.

Other than maybe some art 680 applications I agree.

 

[Tdubya90]

I might be in favor if the CMP would have allowed GFPE for the outdoor "outlets" that include these AC/heat pump units. But I did not think there was justification otherwise to require GFCI on all outdoor outlets. I think the justification for other than 5-15 and 5-20 receptacles is rather weak in most cases. If you are going to use a single electrocution event as justification - then GFCI should be required for everything regardless of conditions. The AC unit incident was caused by a missing or compromised EGC which was always great reason why 5-15 and 5-20 supplied items were a risk as they commonly have missing EGC pins on cord caps.

Exactly, if the EGC was missing then it wasn't to code to begin with. So it wasn't a failure of code that caused the electrocution it was a failure of not complying with the code. I wonder if condenser manufacturers will provide the GFCI protection in the unit like they do with EVSEs...

 

[Tdubya90]

As I read things - based on 2020 or 2023 NEC if it is a stand alone unit and located outdoors, GFCI protection should be required.

If it is located indoors in a dwelling accessory building GFCI would only be required if it happens to be connected by cord and plug.

Do I agree with the requirements, maybe not, but that is what they say once you apply NEC definitions to any NEC defined terminology used in the wording.

So based on what you're saying it would seem it would not need GFCI protection as it's inside the accessory building and the terminations are located inside the unit. I've also written to the manufacturer if the heater is GFCI compatible.

 

[kwired]

So based on what you're saying it would seem it would not need GFCI protection as it's inside the accessory building and the terminations are located inside the unit. I've also written to the manufacturer if the heater is GFCI compatible.

Without other requirements like there is for swimming pools/spas, yes it doesn't need any GFCI per 210.8. A simple sauna isn't an art 680 application though.

 

[Jraef]

Another thing I don't know why I didn't bring up before, I think it's pretty pointless to install a GFCI breaker on a circuit that has no neutral. The GFI needs a neutral in order to function properly, no?

As mentioned by others, a 2 pole GFCI will compare line to line currents and trip if they don’t match within 5mA +-1mA. They don’t monitor hot to neutral currents on the load side. The pigtail to the neutral bar is just because the internal power supply for the electronics inside of the breaker is powered by 120V from the line side.

 

[Tdubya90]

so for future reference and anyone wandering, here is the response from the manufacturer.

GFCI is not to be used. Scope-UL 875
1.1 These requirements cover electric dry-bath heating equipment and other equipment rated 600 volts or less that is intended to produce a dry-heat environment to be installed in accordance with the National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70. The relative humidity in the heated environment is in the region of 10 – 25 percent and the purpose of the heated environment (for air temperatures, see Sections 25 and 26) is to promote perspiration in a short time by means of a relatively warm and dry atmosphere. The completed equipment is to be provided with an automatic temperature-regulating control that may be integral with the heater or wall-mounted, with an integral manual-reset limit control, a timer, and any other necessary associated equipment. Electric dry-bath heating equipment and other equipment intended to produce a dry-heat environment may consist of:

1. a) A heater unit intended for fixed installation in a special room that is built or assembled in the field to comply to the manufacturer's size specifications;
2. b) A combination of a heater unit and a prefabricated, factory-built rigid room in which the assembled combination may be specified for field installation, or that may be supplied with a power-supply cord and intended to be fastened in place or located in a dedicated space. The room may be arranged so that it can be taken apart for shipment; or
3. c) A combination of a heater and a rigid cabinet that is constructed to enclose all but the user's head. The unit is provided with a power supply cord and is intended to be fastened in place or located in a dedicated space.

1.2 These requirements do not cover steam-bath heaters, or cable-type radiant-heating equipment, nor any other electric heating equipment or appliances that are covered in separate, individual requirements.
1.3 Throughout these requirements, the term "heater" is used broadly to refer to any heater unit, including its associated control assembly.
1.4 A heater shall employ materials and components throughout that are intended for the particular use and shall be made and finished with the degree of uniformity and grade of workmanship practicable in a well-equipped factory.
1.5 A product that contains features, characteristics, components, materials, or systems new or different from those covered by the requirements in this standard, and that involves a risk of fire or of electric shock or injury to persons shall be evaluated using appropriate additional component and end-product requirements to maintain the level of safety as originally anticipated by the intent of this standard. A product whose features, characteristics, components, materials, or systems conflict with specific requirements or provisions of this standard does not comply with this standard. Revision of requirements shall be proposed and adopted in conformance with the methods employed for development, revision, and implementation of this standard.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

so for future reference and anyone wandering, here is the response from the manufacturer.

GFCI is not to be used. Scope-UL 875
1.1 These requirements cover electric dry-bath heating equipment and other equipment rated 600 volts or less that is intended to produce a dry-heat environment to be installed in accordance with the National Electrical Code, ANSI/NFPA 70. The relative humidity in the heated environment is in the region of 10 – 25 percent and the purpose of the heated environment (for air temperatures, see Sections 25 and 26) is to promote perspiration in a short time by means of a relatively warm and dry atmosphere. The completed equipment is to be provided with an automatic temperature-regulating control that may be integral with the heater or wall-mounted, with an integral manual-reset limit control, a timer, and any other necessary associated equipment. Electric dry-bath heating equipment and other equipment intended to produce a dry-heat environment may consist of:

1. a) A heater unit intended for fixed installation in a special room that is built or assembled in the field to comply to the manufacturer's size specifications;
2. b) A combination of a heater unit and a prefabricated, factory-built rigid room in which the assembled combination may be specified for field installation, or that may be supplied with a power-supply cord and intended to be fastened in place or located in a dedicated space. The room may be arranged so that it can be taken apart for shipment; or
3. c) A combination of a heater and a rigid cabinet that is constructed to enclose all but the user's head. The unit is provided with a power supply cord and is intended to be fastened in place or located in a dedicated space.

1.2 These requirements do not cover steam-bath heaters, or cable-type radiant-heating equipment, nor any other electric heating equipment or appliances that are covered in separate, individual requirements.
1.3 Throughout these requirements, the term "heater" is used broadly to refer to any heater unit, including its associated control assembly.
1.4 A heater shall employ materials and components throughout that are intended for the particular use and shall be made and finished with the degree of uniformity and grade of workmanship practicable in a well-equipped factory.
1.5 A product that contains features, characteristics, components, materials, or systems new or different from those covered by the requirements in this standard, and that involves a risk of fire or of electric shock or injury to persons shall be evaluated using appropriate additional component and end-product requirements to maintain the level of safety as originally anticipated by the intent of this standard. A product whose features, characteristics, components, materials, or systems conflict with specific requirements or provisions of this standard does not comply with this standard. Revision of requirements shall be proposed and adopted in conformance with the methods employed for development, revision, and implementation of this standard.

What am I missing? I see nothing in that scope that addresses GFCI protection. Even if the product standard prohibited the use of GFCI protection, that would not change the code rule.

 

[Tdubya90]

I don't know man. I don't really care anymore. Damned if you do damned if you don't. I'm sure the customers would prefer it to work. And they will not work with a GFCI on it. It'll trip every time they pour water on it...

 

[Tdubya90]

Thanks for all the help though everyone.

 

[kwired]

And they will not work with a GFCI on it. It'll trip every time they pour water on it...

Maybe. But my guess is they are more likely to trip when the element is new but once it has been heated up a time or two it will be fine. Some other heat elements have this issue as well if installed on a GFCI.

 

[jim dungar]

Looking at the UL scope, I do not see where these devices are supposed to have water poured on them.


I know there are wet saunas and dry saunas. Some people tend to treat saunas like steam baths. Is it possible there is some operator error in play?

 

[junkhound]

Grand daughter's hot tub specifically requires a 30A and 20A GFCI breaker.

Would think wet sauna would be similar.

I do know that if there is a leak in the hot tub the GFCIs both trip untill the control area is dried out well and any leak fixed.

This is a $20K priced new hot tube.

There is an interesting internet case history of a serviceman repairing a leak. He also replace regular breakers with GFCI. All worked well but the owner complained that the stimulation 'tingle feature' was no longer working !!!