Section 210.70 Change

Rock86

Member
Location
new york
A wall mounted switch on the wall? And no luminaire required (yet).
That always bothered me. Every old home I get called to wants a ceiling fan/light in a room where there is no existing luminaire, but rather a switch controlled receptacle. I mean I get that lighting can be a personal thing, but it would be nice to have a requirement for a ceiling mounted switch outlet provision.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
If that were true, the requirement would appear in Chapter 296-46B of the Washington Administrative Code (WAC). It does not. It may be required in some states, but WA is not among them. I have stayed at places where that is the standard configuration, including some hotels in some foreign countries. I don't like it. If you have to use the bathroom in the middle of the night, turning the bathroom light on with the door open will disturb your sleeping partner.
One of the first renovations I made in my house was to move the bathroom light switch from outside to inside. Then I added a vent fan.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Location
Tampa, FL, USA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
210.70(A)(1) Habitable Rooms.
At least one lighting outlet controlled by a listed wall-mounted control device shall be installed in every habitable room, kitchen, and bathroom. The wall-mounted control device shall be located near an entrance to the room on a wall.
I assume wall-mounted control device means it can be wired switch or a remote control.
 

Rock86

Member
Location
new york
I assume wall-mounted control device means it can be wired switch or a remote control.
By this, would say a wall mounted remote holder faceplate meets the wall-mounted control device? Sure the remote can be removed, but it is the intent of the manufacture and installer that the remote shall be returned to the wall.
 

augie47

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee
never thought I'd live to see it (of course that could be said by many things these days)
I submitted similar changes over the years with "the NEC is not a design manual" as the CMP reply.
 

Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician
. . . I have stayed at places where that is the standard configuration, including some hotels in some foreign countries. I don't like it. If you have to use the bathroom in the middle of the night, turning the bathroom light on with the door open will disturb your sleeping partner.
Also, if as a kid, you have a brother like I did, you don't want someone else to control the light (not that I ever got even!)
 

don_resqcapt19

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Illinois
By this, would say a wall mounted remote holder faceplate meets the wall-mounted control device? Sure the remote can be removed, but it is the intent of the manufacture and installer that the remote shall be returned to the wall.
Not really sure I would accept a control in a wall mounted holder, as the control is not wall mounted. The language require a wall mounted control device, not a wall mounted holder for a control device.

The other question is "what the heck is a listed wall mounted control device"? That term in not defined in the NEC or in the UL Product Standards.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
never thought I'd live to see it (of course that could be said by many things these days)
I submitted similar changes over the years with "the NEC is not a design manual" as the CMP reply.
HA. They have overstepped their own rule here many times already.

Most of latter part of 210 is entirely design manual.
 

jusme123

Senior Member
Location
NY
Occupation
Electron Traffic Controller- Journeyman
It is probably not an issue but many threads in the past stated that there was no where in the nec that required a switch to be in the room or near the room that it controlled. Well, that has finally changed



I wonder if they will soon require an outdoor light to be switched near the door where the light is illuminating.
Now, if they will only standardize wire color coding within buildings ( 120/208 black/red/ blue/white and 277/480 brown/orange/yellow/gray). It’s idiotic that this is not already a standardized NEC code.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Now, if they will only standardize wire color coding within buildings ( 120/208 black/red/ blue/white and 277/480 brown/orange/yellow/gray). It’s idiotic that this is not already a standardized NEC code.
That is design decision and hope it stays that way. All that is currently required is identification if there is more than one voltage system present on the premises and that works fine. Identification does not have to be by color either.
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Now, if they will only standardize wire color coding within buildings ( 120/208 black/red/ blue/white and 277/480 brown/orange/yellow/gray). It’s idiotic that this is not already a standardized NEC code.
Just come to Chicago if that's all you want :rolleyes: :

Chicago_grounded_conductor_colors.png
Chicago_ungrounded_conductor_colors.png
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
I believe the state of Washington has a rule that bathroom switches must be installed outside the bathroom.
When I moved back to MA I couldn't understand why all the bath switches were outside the bathroom. I still don't and have done my part to correct that problem. What possible reason is there to think it's better to have it outside the bathroom? Is it an issue of not being close to the shower on really small bathrooms? As far as I know, if the switch is anywhere outside the bath/shower, it's legal.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
That always bothered me. Every old home I get called to wants a ceiling fan/light in a room where there is no existing luminaire, but rather a switch controlled receptacle. I mean I get that lighting can be a personal thing, but it would be nice to have a requirement for a ceiling mounted switch outlet provision.
Meh, it's just more money to run the wires, and then they can pay somebody to patch the holes at the top of the wall and edge of the ceiling.

It's all about the bidding. When they do those subdivisions and build a whole neighborhood over a year or two the electrician that can give the lowest price (by not installing ceiling lights and doing minimum code) gets the job.

My problem is when they just do a switch leg to the switch instead of running a feed in to the switch and a 3 wire to the switched plug. Again, I can rewire it so the switch leg is a feed, but I'd like to just add the red wire to the feed and fish up a wire from the switch. I guess sometimes it's better because the switched receptacle is more in line with one of the recessed lights they like.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Are you saying that you fish in an additional single conductor? o_O
What? No...I mean I wish they ran a 14-2 to the switch for the feed, then a 14-3 to the receptacles so they can use the red wire for the switched outlet. And I prefer they break the tab so that one duplex receptacle has a constant feed. Seems like it's not code if one of the required wall-space receptacles is only operational if the switch is on.

My problem is when they pick a receptacle to be switched (almost ALWAYS a receptacle so close to the door anybody could just turn the lamp on with the lamp switch) and they make both of the duplex receptacles switched by a switch leg they run up to that switch 3 ft away.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Whew! Scared me for a moment.

For existing work, sometimes you have to open the receptacle, sometimes you don't, to add a switched ceiling light.

It also depends on whether you're adding a switch or two, or just keeping the single switch and rewiring the receptacle.

My preference is to split-wire every receptacle in the room using 3-wire, as well as running 3-wire to the ceiling outlets.
 

jaylectricity

Senior Member
Location
Massachusetts
Whew! Scared me for a moment.

For existing work, sometimes you have to open the receptacle, sometimes you don't, to add a switched ceiling light.

It also depends on whether you're adding a switch or two, or just keeping the single switch and rewiring the receptacle.

My preference is to split-wire every receptacle in the room using 3-wire, as well as running 3-wire to the ceiling outlets.
While that's great workmanship and I would love to find that everywhere...my initial point was when a whole neighborhood was being built at once, the electrician that bid using every shortcut he could would win the job. So no...bidding it the way you like to do it would not win the job.

I don't give a shi---I don't give a flying fu--- Sorry, all my memes involve swear words. Let me say it like this: I generally do not care what people do to win bids. I don't have to win bids because all my work is return customers or referrals who don't need a price.
 
Top