SER Cable In Underground Conduit

Status
Not open for further replies.
I have not read all eight pages of this thread and being that this has been hashed to death so many times before I have no desire to read all eight pages.

I am posting ONLY because of what George said here and this comment.

The NEC is not silent on this matter and is very clear on the proper installation of SE-U and SE-R cable when these cables are being used as anything other than Service Entrance Conductors.

338.10(B)(4)(b) is the proper installation of SE-U and SE-R cable when these cables are being installed outside. I don’t think that anyone in this forum would dispute that underground is outside.

NEC said:
(b) Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396.
Click to expand...
NEC said:
(this is for underground installations.)
Type USE cable installed as underground feeder and branch circuit cable shall comply with Part II of Article 340. Where Type USE cable emerges from the ground at terminations, it shall be protected in accordance with 300.5(D).
Multiconductor service-entrance cable shall be permitted to be installed as messenger-supported wiring in accordance with 225.10 and Part II of Article 396.
Click to expand...

Part I of 225 is dealing with overhead conductors and Part II of 396 is dealing with the installation of conductors that are supported by a messenger wire and I don’t see a messenger wire being installed in conduit underground.

Now get that SE cable out of the pipe and install something that the NEC will allow to be installed in the underground pipe!

George I will post again if I see that this thread has a chance of making 300 or even the all elusive 1000 post thread.

EDDITED TO ADD

George
A basement is part of the interior of a building and not the exterior as being discussed.
 
Last edited:
george

the areas you listed are interior installations, and is one of the permitted uses for SE cable, it makes no sense but keep reposting it, have fun
 
georgestolz said:
The conduit is directly buried. It serves as the protection for conductors from the soil.

The issue at hand is, is SER (which is for aboveground use) a violation when installed in "other than aboveground" locations? If so, then aren't the locations listed above also "other than aboveground" and in violation of the listing and/or NEC, just the same as a raceway that is underground?
Click to expand...

The areas you speak of tend to be below grade. Is there ground directly above these rooms? If not the how can these areas be underground.:D
 
stickboy1375 said:
SER may be used in wet or dry locations at temperatures not to exceed 90?C.Voltage rating are 600 volts.


Location, WET. Installations under ground or in concrete slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations subject to saturation with water or other liquids, and in unprotected locations exposed to weather.

You can't list it as a WET location, then tell me I can't install it there...
Click to expand...

Sticky boy--- they can tell you you can't install it there. Direct burial is a wet location yet you cannot direct bury SE Cable even though it is listed for wet location.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Sticky boy--- they can tell you you can't install it there. Direct burial is a wet location yet you cannot direct bury SE Cable even though it is listed for wet location.
Click to expand...


Thats fine, but I dont want to direct bury it, I want to install it in a WET location... :cool:

FWIW, Dennis, I am with you on this, I see this installation alot, and is definitely not my method... BUT, I cant read that you cannot do this install in the NEC...
 
stickboy1375 said:
I don't have my 2005 NEC in front of me, but my 2002 NEC gives a definition of SE as Service-entrance cable having a flame-retardant, moisture resistant covering. also, I visited Southwires website and cannot find anything on restricting the installation underground in a raceway, (I see this method done more than I care to see, and like a few others here I also do not condone this) but I don't see it a violation either.....
Click to expand...
See my post above and you can read where the NEC prohibits the installation of SE-U and SE-R in conduit buried underground.
 
I'll follow art. 334.30 if i'm running it along the side of a house, but what if I wanted to install it in a raceway along the house for protection? Are you saying it cannot be done? I know it can, so I can forget about 334.30 when its in a raceway, so as long as I follow ART 225, I dont see the problem, or restrictions from installing SER in a raceway in the ground... I Just dont see those words....Sorry if am being a pain in the butt, just need it spelled out for me I guess...
 
Last edited:
stickboy1375 said:
so as long as I follow ART 225, I dont see the problem, or restrictions from installing SER in a raceway in the ground... I Just dont see those words....Sorry if am being a pain in the butt, just need it spelled out for me I guess...
Click to expand...
Okay I will be glad to help you to understand to the best of my ability.
338.10(B) Branch Circuits or Feeders. (4) Installation Methods for Branch Circuits and Feeders. (b) Exterior Installations. In addition to the provisions of this article, service-entrance cable used for feeders or branch circuits, where installed as exterior wiring, shall be installed in accordance with Part I of Article 225. The cable shall be supported in accordance with 334.30, unless used as messenger-supported wiring as permitted in Part II of Article 396. Type USE cable installed as underground feeder and branch circuit cable shall comply with Part II of Article 340.

The underlined part of this section states that SE cable when used as branch circuit or feeder conductors and installed as exterior wiring SHALL be installed in accordance with Part I of 225.

Nowhere in Part I of 225 addresses the use or installation of underground conductors and only covers overhead installations and the installations on the outside of a building.

The underlined part of the section above goes on to state how the SE cable is to be supported.

Now for me to follow the requirement found in 338.10(B)(4)(b) I must comply with one or both of the other sections referred to in this section. If neither of these addresses the underground installation then there is nothing to follow.

The last sentence of 338.10(B)(4)(b) does address the underground installation of SE conductors and just what does it say?
Type USE cable installed as underground feeder and branch circuit cable shall comply with Part II of Article 340.

This along with the listing of SE-U and SE-R cable should put to rest the desire to install either in conduit underground.
To help with the underground installation of the cable in pipe I must ask if the cable in pipe underground would not be the same as NM cable in liquid tight on the outside. Both are being installed in a location they are not supposed to the installed regardless of the raceway they are being installed in.
 
Hail Charlie Brown...

Hail Charlie Brown...

M. D. said:
I think 110.3(B) could be used as a reason to tag it as a violation . I also think the cable does not have to listed in the first place,.. so there it is:)
Click to expand...

For all those who have never pulled rope or seen SE-U, SE-R, SE-EZ...here is what Southwire states in their cable handbook page 62,

"The Underwriters Laboratories (UL) listings state that Type SE is for aboveground use only. Installation of Type SE cable underground is a violation of this listing and a violation of the NEC (Section 110.3).
Type USE (Underground Service Entrance) is for underground use."

BTW, a following note states "SEU designates Service Entrance Unarmored."

M.D.,

I agree and so does Pierre, mpd, jwe, Radiopet and a few others in this great forum.
 
Last edited:
Hope you've had a good weekend, RBJ. :cool:

gndrod said:
"The Underwriters Laboratories (UL) listings state that Type SE is for aboveground use only. Installation of Type SE cable underground is a violation of this listing and a violation of the NEC (Section 110.3).
Click to expand...

That's fine - but the SER in question is not underground according to the fellow from the UL. It never finds contact with soil. :D :D

Wait a minute - am I repeating myself? ;)
 
Yo George,
I think it was just an echo. Here is a great opportunity for a 2011 proposal for a better definition between aboveground, underground and below grade....and lets not forget to include submersed and 'dry' wet locations. Where is the UL guy when we need him. :] Thanks for the reminder. rbj
 
Hi aline,

I hope you have gotten a pretty good idea on where SE cable is used in residential wiring. I can say I have seen it in conduit buried below grade where it failed. I have seen it tagged for being in conduit below grade also. Depends on what the AHJ calls regardless of it being to the NEC.

The NEC does not prohibit the method, the NEC only directs the reader through section 110.3(B) as what examination in judging equipment using considerations of 110.3(A) for suitability that may be guided through a descriptive marking evidenced by listing or labeling. There is no NEC mention of the 'UL' as being that marking. The NEC cya Article 110.2 Approval references a FPN to see definitions of "Approved, Identified, Labeled, and Listed." In the electronics trade this is called a 360, so in electrical jargon the AHJ is the final answer. Sorry for being so precise.

I can say that I have installed SE cable in residential (West Coast States) for at least 40 years for gooseneck entries, heatpumps, furnace, and yes even ranges all permitted and approved. The only time that SE went through PVC was for roof stubs to A/C and heatpump feeders. I hope this helps. rbj
 
george

do you really believe SE cable in a conduit underground is considered aboveground, or are you just trying any way you can to justify a violation, would you be willing to sign your name to this type of installation?
do you believe if it ended up in court your interpretation of SE cable not being underground because it is in conduit would hold up?
 
Mike is going to submit something I sent him the other day for 2011 proposals.

To simply add the following

338.2 Definitions.
Service-Entrance Cable. A single conductor or multiconductor
Assembly provided with or without an overall covering,
Primarily used for services, and of the following
Types:

Type SE. Service-entrance cable having a flame-retardant,
Moisture-resistant covering.
Type USE. Service-entrance cable, identified for underground
Use, having a moisture-resistant covering, but not
Required to have a flame-retardant covering.

Should it be based on the UL's listing of SE Cable be redone to read it as:

Type SE. Service-entrance cable, identified for aboveground use, having a flame-retardant and Moisture-resistant covering.
 
LarryFine said:
They'd probably use Mike Holt's NEC forum as a reference. ;)
Click to expand...

2-319 Log #606 NEC-P02 Final Action: Accept in Principle
(220.52(A))
______________________________________________________________
Submitter: Joseph Michael Whitt, JW Electric
Recommendation: Revise text to read: Small Appliance Circuit Load. In each dwelling unit, the load shall be calculated at 1500 volt-amperes for each 2-wire small-appliance branch circuit required installed by 210.11(C)(1).
Substantiation: As worded, it could be misunderstood that only two circuits are to be used in the service or feeder calculation due to the fact that 210.11(C)(1) could lead one to believe that only two circuits are required by the wording ?two or more?. By changing the word ?required? to ?installed?, it would make it clear that any and all circuits being installed as outlined by 210.11(C)(1) would be required to be included in the service or feeder calculation.

Note: Supporting material is available for review at NFPA Headquarters.

Panel Meeting Action: Accept in Principle
Revise the words in the first sentence of 220.52(A) ?required by 210.11(C)(1)? to ?as covered by 210.11(C)(1)?.
Panel Statement: The panel has revised the text to remove the words ?required? and simply reference the coverage of the provision in 210.11(C)(1).
Number Eligible to Vote: 12
Ballot Results: Affirmative: 12

In this proposal the NOTE (highlighted in bold) for supporting material is the thread on this discussion copied and pasted to the proposal just as this thread will be copied and pasted to the proposal.
Now for those who think this is a gray area or think that it needs some type of explanation to help clear it up, I am looking forward to reading your proposal in the 2011 ROPS
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top