Service conductors inside a building

[Anon1]

Yes, for the last scenario you posted. The service conductors are underground, outside the building, and then terminate in in a panel that is is the first reasonable readily accessible point.

No problem. Does not have to be an exterior wall as long as it is a straight shot from underground to panel.

"first reasonable readily accessible point" This is what I'm getting at. Reasonable. The code doesn't say reasonable, but everyone understands that it's implied and necessary.

So in my situation, if the utility demands my mast be in one location and the NEC demands my disco be in another location 4' away horizontally then how does it not still qualify as being "first reasonable readily accessible point"? Moving the disco any closer to the mast violated clearances the NEC mandates for the disco.

 

[ActionDave]

Um, no.

Um, why not?

 

[jumper]

Um, why not?

For the last scenario posted the service conductors are terminating in the first redibly accessible spot, no?

 

[jumper]

"first reasonable readily accessible point" This is what I'm getting at. Reasonable. The code doesn't say reasonable, but everyone understands that it's implied and necessary.

So in my situation, if the utility demands my mast be in one location and the NEC demands my disco be in another location 4' away horizontally then how does it not still qualify as being "first reasonable readily accessible point"? Moving the disco any closer to the mast violated clearances the NEC mandates for the disco.

You are accountable to the NEC only. If the PoCo demands else wise, follow NEC and let inspector deal with them.

 

[electrofelon]

California is the only place in the country where service conductors are allowed to be installed inside a wall.

WA state allows 15' of SEC inside, so we can do it here too.

 

[jumper]

WA state allows 15' of SEC inside, so we can do it here too.

But no SE cable. Correct?

 

[electrofelon]

But no SE cable. Correct?

Correct, no SE for services

 

[Anon1]

You are accountable to the NEC only. If the PoCo demands else wise, follow NEC and let inspector deal with them.

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. You are as accountable to the utility and their regulations as to the NEC.

Maybe things are done differently where you're at, but out here our utility is all-powerful and the inspector has basically ZERO power over them. The inspector doesn't "deal" with the utility other than giving them release to install a meter. That's it. YOU deal with the inspector and YOU deal with the utility. The inspector doesn't fight for you and he certainly doesn't tell the utility what to do. As such the AHJ and the utility are expected to respect each other's codes. If the utility demands the mast be in a particular location and the NEC demands the disco be a couple feet over, then obviously the inspector has to see that as the nearest possible location to the point of entry.

 

[electrofelon]

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. You are as accountable to the utility and their regulations as to the NEC.

Maybe things are done differently where you're at, but out here our utility is all-powerful and the inspector has basically ZERO power over them. The inspector doesn't "deal" with the utility other than giving them release to install a meter. That's it. YOU deal with the inspector and YOU deal with the utility. The inspector doesn't fight for you and he certainly doesn't tell the utility what to do. As such the AHJ and the utility are expected to respect each other's codes. If the utility demands the mast be in a particular location and the NEC demands the disco be a couple feet over, then obviously the inspector has to see that as the nearest possible location to the point of entry.

Maybe I am not quite following what you are saying, but the inspector doesnt have to let you put the service disconnect at the nearest point you can get to inside. IF you need a disconnect on the outside thats the way it is and you get to run a 4 wire feeder to your panel.

 

[GoldDigger]

That ascii house was terrible, the slash characters don't play nice with spaces during posting, probably because of the markup tags. Hopefully it's clear what I was trying to do. We all know what a gable end of a house looks like right?

If you want to try again, ASCII art can work if you enclose the whole thing in CODE tags. (hash symbol in format bar.)

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

 

[jumper]

I don't know how you can come to that conclusion. You are as accountable to the utility and their regulations as to the NEC.

Maybe things are done differently where you're at, but out here our utility is all-powerful and the inspector has basically ZERO power over them. The inspector doesn't "deal" with the utility other than giving them release to install a meter. That's it. YOU deal with the inspector and YOU deal with the utility. The inspector doesn't fight for you and he certainly doesn't tell the utility what to do. As such the AHJ and the utility are expected to respect each other's codes. If the utility demands the mast be in a particular location and the NEC demands the disco be a couple feet over, then obviously the inspector has to see that as the nearest possible location to the point of entry.

No he/she does not have to come to that “obvious and/or possible” conclusion.

Hopefully one thinks so......but no!!!

I have worked with CA utilities. I know PG&E well, trust me.

If I was a CA inspector I wouldn’t hesitate to pass your install , but your position is flawed from the beginning from a NEC point of view.

 

[Anon1]

Maybe I am not quite following what you are saying, but the inspector doesnt have to let you put the service disconnect at the nearest point you can get to inside. IF you need a disconnect on the outside thats the way it is and you get to run a 4 wire feeder to your panel.

230.70(A)(1) states that service disconnects are allowed inside, there's just some rules you have to follow. Those governing rules are what we're debating. Interior discos aren't common in lots of residential applications so it's a common misunderstanding that they are not allowed inside.

Also, the original install I was working on that caused me to start this thread doesn't have the disco inside. The service mast is inside the walls and the meter main combo panel is flush mounted on an exterior wall with the meter and disco and breakers facing outward. Long story, you'd have to read the first few pages of the thread, but basically one thing that makes it a really confusing topic is that in most places the AHJ forbids service conductors inside exterior walls with flush mount exterior discos even though they are 100% allowed by the NEC.

 

[Anon1]

No he/she does not have to come to that “obvious and/or possible” conclusion.
be
Hopefully one thinks so......but no!!!

I have worked with CA utilities. I know PG&E well, trust me.

If I was a CA inspector I wouldn’t hesitate to pass your install , but your position is flawed from the beginning from a NEC point of view.

So just to be clear, going back to my earlier example of the install in the picture. Let's assume the AHJ in question does not specify a max length. If the inspector quotes 230.70(A)(1) and says the disco is not "nearest the point of entrance" because the pipe runs for 30" in the wall before terminating in the disco, you say he is wrong and that he can't justify that call, correct? Can you explain to me why he is wrong beyond just saying that he is?

 

[electrofelon]

230.70(A)(1) states that service disconnects are allowed inside, there's just some rules you have to follow. Those governing rules are what we're debating. Interior discos aren't common in lots of residential applications so it's a common misunderstanding that they are not allowed inside.

Also, the original install I was working on that caused me to start this thread doesn't have the disco inside. The service mast is inside the walls and the meter main combo panel is flush mounted on an exterior wall with the meter and disco and breakers facing outward. Long story, you'd have to read the first few pages of the thread, but basically one thing that makes it a really confusing topic is that in most places the AHJ forbids service conductors inside exterior walls with flush mount exterior discos even though they are 100% allowed by the NEC.

Depends on the area I guess. In the northeast and WA state, the areas I have experience with, interior discos are almost universal.

You cant have a flush mount with a mast in the wall unless your AHJ allows a lot t of conductor inside like WA does.

 

[LarryFine]

I wonder if you could argue that a conduit within the thickness of the exterior wall hasn't actually entered the structure?

 

[Anon1]

If you want to try again, ASCII art can work if you enclose the whole thing in CODE tags. (hash symbol in format bar.)

Sent from my XT1585 using Tapatalk

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Nice. Thanks for the help.

 

[Adamjamma]

I wonder if you could argue that a conduit within the thickness of the exterior wall hasn't actually entered the structure?

That is what I was wondering? Why can it not be argued that the conduit is located on the outside even though inside the wall... simply somehow putting two inches of concrete around the conduit would do so..technically...

Of course, another way would be to install the meter and a fused disconnect at the original position, then run a four wire to the new position...
another would be to run underground to the new position..
and another way would be to move the mast ...
Of course, I look at it as being ok of one can show the conduits as being on the outside of the exterior wall so that they are technically classed as outside... what other methods can be used to create an exterior position for the conduits?

 

[Anon1]

Just figured out the multiple quotes, sorry for the multiple posts.

I wonder if you could argue that a conduit within the thickness of the exterior wall hasn't actually entered the structure?

I don't see how you could. Even if you are of that opinion, you can't really say someone is wrong if they hold the opinion that once you break through the outer surface of the building you're inside it. But I get your point.

Depends on the area I guess. In the northeast and WA state, the areas I have experience with, interior discos are almost universal.

You cant have a flush mount with a mast in the wall unless your AHJ allows a lot t of conductor inside like WA does.

You are not wrong, but I don't think that statement really gets to the debate at hand. Bottom line, if your AHJ has a published code or code addendum that restricts the length of SECs inside a building to something very short then no you cannot have a mast in a wall. No argument there.

But let's argue strictly from what's in the NEC because we have no such code addendum where I am. The NEC expressly allows SECs to be ran inside buildings and it does not specify a maximum length. Where I am, flush mounted meter main panels with masts inside the walls is the norm. Furthermore, it is totally normal for a mast to run from a meter panel at ground level straight up and out of a 2nd story roof.

 

[roger]

I wonder if you could argue that a conduit within the thickness of the exterior wall hasn't actually entered the structure?

Not per the NEC, 220.12 already states the interior of a building is measured from the outside dimensions of the building, meaning inside the exterior walls in inside.

Roger

 

[LarryFine]

I have the solution!

Remove the exterior wall along the conduit pathway so it's exposed, but merely in a recess.