Service Disconnecting Means - Outside

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augie47 said:
Bein' a southerner, we don't see a lot of that white stuff. But as I watch on TV and see snow drifts 6ft and higher, I'd not want to think the service disconnect is located "somewhere out there". I can certaily see an AHJ enforcing 225.32 if the service disocnnect was any distance at all from the structure.
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How can the AHJ enforce a feeder disconnect requirement in place and stead of a service disconnect requirement. ?
 
wbalsam1 said:
How can the AHJ enforce a feeder disconnect requirement in place and stead of a service disconnect requirement. ?
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That, to me, seemed to be the point of the discussion..possibly not.
The "distance" away I thought was the question. It seemed that at some point many thought the wiring from the service disconnect became a feeder and 225.32 came into account. The argument based on the NEC definition of a structure supports that thought. Based on that definition, an argument can eaisly be made that if you mount your serivce disconnect on something that is "built or constructed" then the wires leaving there are feeding a "seperate structure".
At best, I think the sitaution can be viewed from different aspects.
All I'm saying is that, if the allowable distance is an AHJ decision, I would lean towards 225 being applicable at a very close distance if onditions
were such that the service disconnet location was not obvious. (such as buried under snow).
 
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wbalsam1 said:
How can the AHJ enforce a feeder disconnect requirement in place and stead of a service disconnect requirement. ?
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The service conductors end at the service disconnect. Anything after the service disconnect is a feeder or a branch circuit. If the service is located detached from the building, then it is a separate structure and the feeder between it and the building is an outside feeder and Section 225 applies to it.

The question is, how far from the building can the disconnect be located without being considered a separate structure? I have always felt that if it is close enough that it looks like it is part of the building (a few feet maybe) then I can feel comfortable with considering it part of the building and not a separate structure.
 
eprice said:
The service conductors end at the service disconnect. Anything after the service disconnect is a feeder or a branch circuit. If the service is located detached from the building, then it is a separate structure and the feeder between it and the building is an outside feeder and Section 225 applies to it.

The question is, how far from the building can the disconnect be located without being considered a separate structure? I have always felt that if it is close enough that it looks like it is part of the building (a few feet maybe) then I can feel comfortable with considering it part of the building and not a separate structure.
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Gus and Eprice have stated my concern/question very well. It is exactly what I was asking/thinking.

So....how far from the building would you think is a safe distance??? (I am not testing anyone, I am curious what others have to say)
 
This is such a difficult thing, because it is a very real problem. I have passed some that were twenty feet away, but I think that is about my limit.

BTW: I talked with a friend of mine on CMP-4 (Articles 225 and 230) and asked about a within sight exception. He said it has been proposed before and was rejected. He said that for something like this the panel was too concerned about something that is within sight today may not be tommorrow (due to trees, bushes, walls, etc). While this may be OK for a a small motor or an A/C unit, this is far too important a disconnect to have to search for.
 
ryan_618 said:
This is such a difficult thing, because it is a very real problem. I have passed some that were twenty feet away, but I think that is about my limit.

BTW: I talked with a friend of mine on CMP-4 (Articles 225 and 230) and asked about a within sight exception. He said it has been proposed before and was rejected. He said that for something like this the panel was too concerned about something that is within sight today may not be tommorrow (due to trees, bushes, walls, etc). While this may be OK for a a small motor or an A/C unit, this is far too important a disconnect to have to search for.
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Ryan
I am curious, how did you come to determine that 20 ft would be acceptable for you?
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
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The location requirements of the service disconnecting means when installed outside of (not attached to) the building is found in 230.70(A)(1).

If one was to install the disconnecting means away from the building, how far from the building would you say is permitted before having to apply 225.32?.............
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230.70(A)(1) establishes that the service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location. It then gives the option of locating the service disconnecting means in either of two locations.
  • one choice is inside: "inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors". There have been many attemps to define what "nearest" meant per code. I was the person involved in generating a Technical Bulletin from the Department of State Codes Division and sucessfully argued against a power company's interpretation.
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/pdf/servconductlengthTB.htm

  • The other choice is outside. The text does not say "outside nearest" or "outside farthest", it simply says "outside of a building". It doesn't even say "outside of the building being served"....
 
wbalsam1 said:
230.70(A)(1) establishes that the service disconnecting means shall be installed at a readily accessible location. It then gives the option of locating the service disconnecting means in either of two locations.
  • one choice is inside: "inside nearest the point of entrance of the service conductors". There have been many attemps to define what "nearest" meant per code. I was the person involved in generating a Technical Bulletin from the Department of State Codes Division and sucessfully argued against a power company's interpretation.
http://www.dos.state.ny.us/code/pdf/servconductlengthTB.htm

  • The other choice is outside. The text does not say "outside nearest" or "outside farthest", it simply says "outside of a building". It doesn't even say "outside of the building being served"....
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Would you allow a service disconnecting means located outside, 3oo ft from the house, to be the sole means of disconnect for the house? Not requiring a disconnect at the house if the service disco is that far away?
 
"The intent is to provide a service disconnecting means that is at an accessible location as close as is practical to the point at which these conductors enter a building."



I and many fire officials I know do not agree with Ron's determination in the PDF you linked.

The above quoted sentence is from that PDF.
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
"The intent is to provide a service disconnecting means that is at an accessible location as close as is practical to the point at which these conductors enter a building."
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Your hi-lighted text is referring to where conductors have entered a building, not where they are "outside".



Pierre C Belarge said:
...........I and many fire officials I know do not agree with Ron's determination in the PDF you linked.
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Get the NEC amended and when the state adopts that particular edition of the NEC you can enforce it. :wink:
 
Pierre C Belarge said:
Touche!!! ;):grin::cool:
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If I placed my service disconnect on a 8X8 structure five to ten feet from the dwelling, and my service disconnect also had a Nema 3R rated panelboard beneath it, or as a part of it, and I extended every branch circuit out of the dwelling in UF cable, would I need a main disconnecting means in the house? :-?:smile:
 
wbalsam1 said:
If I placed my service disconnect on a 8X8 structure five to ten feet from the dwelling, and my service disconnect also had a Nema 3R rated panelboard beneath it, or as a part of it, and I extended every branch circuit out of the dwelling in UF cable, would I need a main disconnecting means in the house? :-?:smile:
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now you've gone and added 225.30 in the mix and you would be in violation there :D

I'm glad to Code is so clear on everything
 
wbalsam1 said:
If I placed my service disconnect on a 8X8 structure five to ten feet from the dwelling, and my service disconnect also had a Nema 3R rated panelboard beneath it, or as a part of it, and I extended every branch circuit out of the dwelling in UF cable, would I need a main disconnecting means in the house? :-?:smile:
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I would have to think about it some before I answer this one. Remember Fred, I may not be any good, but I am slow. ;)
 
i see i could not get a straight answer

i see i could not get a straight answer

my original question was that i had this question on my journeymen test and it should be removed and i think im going to appeal this one with the testing company
 
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Pierre C Belarge said:
In reading Jeff Sargent's article in the NEC Digest, I have a question to ask all here who wish to participate.

The location requirements of the service disconnecting means when installed outside of (not attached to) the building is found in 230.70(A)(1).

If one was to install the disconnecting means away from the building, how far from the building would you say is permitted before having to apply 225.32?


I have been asked this question myself in my jurisdiction, but I am curious how others feel about this topic.
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i found out that in 2002 the nec tried to put in a distance on this and it was turned down. so there is no set distance.
 
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