- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
What are the pros and cons of both setups?
Are both legal?
Are both legal?
Service Grounding
- Thread starter George Stolz
- Start date
- Status
IMO, the 2nd setup would not be Code compliant. 250.80 states enclosures, & raceways shall be connected to the grounded conductor.
Your jumper from the enclosure to the nipples is dependent on the can to be the conductor.
Your jumper from the enclosure to the nipples is dependent on the can to be the conductor.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I disagree. Any metallic items can be bonded using the enclosure. I would agree if this is a neutral or a GEC as they cannot use the enclosure as a conductor.
That said, the second setup is terribly inefficient from a materials and labor stand point but I think compliant.
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texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Still compliant, but even more inefficient from a material and labor standpoint.
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
Is this another burrito question or a classroom question? Who wants to do it the second way?
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Everybody, and they tore out the first way to do it the second way for fear of what the inspector would say.
I will stand my ground. The wording of 250.80 vs 250.86 to me states service enclosures, etc,. have to be connected to the grounded conductor.
Non-service need only to be connected to equipment grounding means.
From a practical standpoint, depending on the service size, connecting all conduits in a loop can often require a jumper needing large lugs and more difficulty installing than installing an individual jumper to each conduit.
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texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
Yes, I agree that enclosures, raceways, etc must be connected to the grounded conductor. I just don't think they must be directly connected. As an example, what if you were to bond the CT neutral to the can and bond the main disconnect neutral to the can and then use bonding type lock nuts for the nipples per 250.92. Routinely done, but by your interpretation this would violate 250.80. I do agree that a GEC would have to connect directly to the neutral bar.
And your point about daisy chaining the bonding jumpers is right on. I was thinking the same thing. The required size can get out of hand real quick on a service with larger and multiple service conductors.
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
You're suggesting running an individual conductor to each of the eight raceways plus the CT can from the service neutral bus?
- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
They tore out a legitimate install based on what the inspector MIGHT say.....?
Mass hysteria? Sick building syndrome? They ate too many of those unregulated edibles and got paranoid?
Yes. Iam against 'series' grounding'
- Location
- Windsor, CO NEC: 2017
- Occupation
- Service Manager
Now, imagine my response, when coupled with a rough week anyway.
Edit to add: tore out not once, but thrice.
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- Occupation
- Licensed Electrician
You went and had some edibles....?Now, imagine my response, when coupled with a rough week anyway.
Edit to add: tore out not once, but thrice.
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
augie, lets see if we can hash this out. I'm agreeing with you, but only to a point as I stated in post #10. 250.80 says enclosures must be connected to the grounded conductor. 250 Part V Bonding tells you how you may accomplish this. As I stated, if it required a direct connection to the neutral conductor (such as a GEC would) there would be no use for, say, bonding type lock nuts used in a service application as permitted in 250.92.
I see your point and I am researching
texie
Senior Member
- Location
- Fort Collins, Colorado
- Occupation
- Electrician, Contractor, Inspector
I see your point and I am researching
If I may, let me use another example. Assume a 3R enclosure with a service raceway entering the top thru a factory optional bolt on hub. How would you connect that raceway directly to the neutral/grounded conductor? You can't and don't need to as it is indirectly connected to the neutral in a manner compliant with 250.92.
Am I making my case?
Only to a point
The specifics you have given are, IMO, listed in 250.92(B) (1),(2)(3) or (4).
I am not convinced (yet) that a conductor bolted (fastened) to the can is an approved method.
Working on it.
The specifics you have given are, IMO, listed in 250.92(B) (1),(2)(3) or (4).
I am not convinced (yet) that a conductor bolted (fastened) to the can is an approved method.
Working on it.
FWIW, 250.92 title is "Services".Only to a point
The specifics you have given are, IMO, listed in 250.92(B) (1),(2)(3) or (4).
I am not convinced (yet) that a conductor bolted (fastened) to the can is an approved method.
Working on it.
Also, within the the general statement of 250.92(B) is...
...and a bonding-type locknut is one of the methods listed below.
If a service raceway (or enclosure, depending on how you look at it) is permitted to be bonded using a bonding-type locknut, how would you connect it to the grounded conductor???
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