Service Rated ATS-No Generator

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infinity

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Is there any potential code issue with using a service rated ATS with a 50 amp inlet box for the EM feeder in lieu of a generator? Money is tight but they want to have the option to add a generator in the future without having to reconfigure the service.
 
Is there any potential code issue with using a service rated ATS with a 50 amp inlet box for the EM feeder in lieu of a generator? Money is tight but they want to have the option to add a generator in the future without having to reconfigure the service.
Code issue would be if 50A is too low for an ATS. With an ATS, powering the full load is required of the generator, or load shedding must drop the load to the rated output of the generator.

If they plan on using a portable generator, an MTS or MAIN/GEN breaker interlock is a more economical choice.
 
Code issue would be if 50A is too low for an ATS. With an ATS, powering the full load is required of the generator, or load shedding must drop the load to the rated output of the generator.

If they plan on using a portable generator, an MTS or MAIN/GEN breaker interlock is a more economical choice.

Yes, the inlet box is to feed the EM side of the ATS from a portable generator. There will be no automatic functions just manually starting the generator, connecting it and flipping the transfer switch. At some time in the future the inlet will be removed, a generator installed and the system will be set up then as an automatic system.
 
Yes, the inlet box is to feed the EM side of the ATS from a portable generator. There will be no automatic functions just manually starting the generator, connecting it and flipping the transfer switch. At some time in the future the inlet will be removed, a generator installed and the system will be set up then as an automatic system.
Perhaps the AHJ will be understanding. A hardline inspector will likely interpret the ATS (even one manually flipped), 50A inlet combination as a violation. What is the chance a permit will be pulled when the system is revised?
 
Perhaps the AHJ will be understanding. A hardline inspector will likely interpret the ATS (even one manually flipped), 50A inlet combination as a violation. What is the chance a permit will be pulled when the system is revised?

That's the question, what is violated from the NEC by this arrangement? I wouldn't consider what might happen in the future to be a code issue.
 
That's the question, what is violated from the NEC by this arrangement? I wouldn't consider what might happen in the future to be a code issue.
Look at 702.4(B). The issue is with the transfer switch being an ATS. Doesn't really matter whether a generator is hooked up or not when you have a 50A inlet connect to the standby side (I'm assuming the calculated load is greater than 50A). The fact is, the transfer switch is an ATS, which in Code speak is "automatic transfer equipment". Does the transfer switch being manually operated matter?

If you think it will fly as is, why ask the question? I'm thinking you know the answer is it likely won't but just hoping someone else will say it will.
 
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Look at 702.4(B). The issue is with the transfer switch being an ATS. Doesn't really matter whether a generator is hooked up or not when you have a 50A inlet connect to the standby side (I'm assuming the calculated load is greater than 50A). The fact is, the transfer switch is an ATS, which in Code speak is "automatic transfer equipment". Does the transfer switch being manually operated matter?

If you think it will fly as is, why ask the question? I'm thinking you know the answer is it likely won't but just hoping someone else will say it will.

The fact that the ATS can operate automatically doesn't really matter because is cannot do so without the connection to an automatic generator.

For arguments sake lets forget the inlet option and say that there will just be a service rated ATS feeding a panel and nothing more. Would that violate some part of the NEC?
 
Whether it is a manual or an automatic transfer switch you still need to be able to meet the load so the question is if 50 amps is sufficient.

If the system is completely manual with a portable generator then why would it need to be sized for the full load? The user would select the circuit breakers they wanted to energize just like with an inlet and breaker interlock.
 
The fact that the ATS can operate automatically doesn't really matter because is cannot do so without the connection to an automatic generator.

For arguments sake lets forget the inlet option and say that there will just be a service rated ATS feeding a panel and nothing more. Would that violate some part of the NEC?

No, not that I know of. Panels are supplied with spare breakers all the time and rooms are shown as (future) on drawings. This to me is no different. All the inspector can say is make sure you pull a permit when you bring in the generator so we can inspect it.
 
The fact that the ATS can operate automatically doesn't really matter because is cannot do so without the connection to an automatic generator. ....

I agree. The manual act of hooking up the portable generator qualifies as manual transfer equipment so the set up would qualify as a 702.4(B)(1) install until a permanent generator is in place.
 
The fact that the ATS can operate automatically doesn't really matter because is cannot do so without the connection to an automatic generator.

For arguments sake lets forget the inlet option and say that there will just be a service rated ATS feeding a panel and nothing more. Would that violate some part of the NEC?
IMO, no.

Installing the 50A inlet (and conductors) is what makes the ATS a violation.
 
IMO, no.

Installing the 50A inlet (and conductors) is what makes the ATS a violation.

How so? The inlet requires transfer equipment which you have with an ATS being used manually. Would a manual breaker interlock be any different?
 
If the system is completely manual with a portable generator then why would it need to be sized for the full load? The user would select the circuit breakers they wanted to energize just like with an inlet and breaker interlock.

720.4(B)(1) Manual Transfer Equipment. Where manual transfer
equipment is used, an optional standby system shall have
adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment
intended to be operated at one time. The user of the
optional standby system shall be permitted to select the
load connected to the system.

If the transfer switch connects a panel all loads in that panel are connected to the system unless shed or other wise prevented from operating on the generator.
 
720.4(B)(1) Manual Transfer Equipment. Where manual transfer
equipment is used, an optional standby system shall have
adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment
intended to be operated at one time. The user of the
optional standby system shall be permitted to select the
load connected to the system.

If the transfer switch connects a panel all loads in that panel are connected to the system unless shed or other wise prevented from operating on the generator.
You are allowed to shed loads manually. The fact that a portable generator with a temporary hook up is being used means that you have manual transfer equipment even though the transfer switch is automatic.
 
How so? The inlet requires transfer equipment which you have with an ATS being used manually. Would a manual breaker interlock be any different?
Code makes no allowance for nonautomated automatic transfer equipment... and I'm only saying this from the position of a hardline inspector.
 
Whether it is a manual or an automatic transfer switch you still need to be able to meet the load so the question is if 50 amps is sufficient.
I'm guessing the transfer switch in question is rated 100 or 200 amps, he just wants to connect a 50 amp (max) source to the "standby" side of the switch, and is perfectly fine if it is an ATS and it can't transfer to more then 50 amps of connected load, or if it is a MTS and the user manually sheds any excess load. No answer here so far to whether you can use an ATS as a MTS

IMO, no.

Installing the 50A inlet (and conductors) is what makes the ATS a violation.
That ATS is not going to transfer just because you connect voltage to the inlet, it still needs additional control wires and a signal from a genset designed to work with the ATS before it will automatically transfer, you won't get that out of a typical 4 wire inlet, you may however right or wrong, rig your own controls that would automatically give it a signal when the inlet is energized. One thing it still won't do is automatically start the generator when power fails, so that means even if you rig it to automatically transfer if inlet has power, you still need operator intervention before there is power to initiate the whole process, unlike a traditional ATS system where it will start the generator and then transfer even if there is no operator to witness anything.

720.4(B)(1) Manual Transfer Equipment. Where manual transfer
equipment is used, an optional standby system shall have
adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment
intended to be operated at one time. The user of the
optional standby system shall be permitted to select the
load connected to the system.

If the transfer switch connects a panel all loads in that panel are connected to the system unless shed or other wise prevented from operating on the generator.
Exactly what happens with a typical manual transfer setup, OP is going to manually connect the generator and manually operate the transfer switch.
 
Code makes no allowance for nonautomated automatic transfer equipment... and I'm only saying this from the position of a hardline inspector.
702.4 Capacity and Rating.
(A) Available Short-Circuit Current. Optional standby
system equipment shall be suitable for the maximum available
short-circuit current at its terminals.
(B) System Capacity. The calculations of load on the
standby source shall be made in accordance with Article
220 or by another approved method.
(1) Manual Transfer Equipment. Where manual transfer
equipment is used, an optional standby system shall have
adequate capacity and rating for the supply of all equipment
intended to be operated at one time. The user of the
optional standby system shall be permitted to select the
load connected to the system.

Hardline or not here it is in the code.
 
...
(1) Manual Transfer Equipment. Where manual transfer
equipment is used...
A service-rated ATS is listed as such. Using it in a manual manner does not change what it is.

(2) Automatic Transfer Equipment. Where automatic
transfer equipment is used, an optional standby system
shall comply with (2)(a) or (2)(b).

(a) Full Load. The standby source shall be capable of
supplying the full load that is transferred by the automatic
transfer equipment.

(b) Load Management. Where a system is employed
that will automatically manage the connected load, the
standby source shall have a capacity sufficient to supply the
maximum load that will be connected by the load management
system.

PS:
702.5 Transfer Equipment. Transfer equipment shall be
suitable for the intended use...
 
Exactly what happens with a typical manual transfer setup, OP is going to manually connect the generator and manually operate the transfer switch.

It is my position that all loads that are connected to the generator are intended for use. A homeowner is not going to understand what loads can be used at any one time.
 
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