Service Rated ATS-No Generator

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Smart $ said:
Code makes no allowance for nonautomated automatic transfer equipment... and I'm only saying this from the position of a hardline inspector.
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I only issue I see is if an ATS is only permitted by its listing to be operated automatically. I've seen many ATS's that have a means to operate them manually and I don't see why operating it manually would be inconsistent with its listing since it's designed, built and can be operated that way.
 
infinity said:
I only issue I see is if an ATS is only permitted by its listing to be operated automatically. I've seen many ATS's that have a means to operate them manually and I don't see why operating it manually would be inconsistent with its listing since it's designed, built and can be operated that way.
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We are not going to get any further on this matter. I see both sides and I would allow it IF I were the inspector... but I am not. Ask the actual inspector and you will know for certain. :happyyes:
 
If you don't have a stand by power source, typically the battery on the generator, to provide power for the auto transfer, the ATS will not function as one. Once utility is restored, and you turn off the portable generator, the contacts should fall back to utility connection. 702.4.B.1 permits you to choose the loads connected to the system. Doesn't say who gets to choose.
 
ActionDave said:
First of all that's a bunch of bull, second evaluating a home owner's understanding is not in the scope of the NEC in the slightest.
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I agree, what is the point of having different requirements for manual and automatic transfer if you take the stance all equipment must handle all the load, the whole point of automatic transfer being able to handle the load transferred is it can transfer whether there is user supervision or not, if it transfers too much load and overcurrent protection trips out, there wasn't much point in having automatic transfer - though I think that still should only belong to legally required standby and not optional standby. For optional standby it is just a stupid design to not be able to handle the transferred load but not so much a life or property threat.

Smart $ said:
We are not going to get any further on this matter. I see both sides and I would allow it IF I were the inspector... but I am not. Ask the actual inspector and you will know for certain. :happyyes:
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That is probably the best answer here as I imagine there are many that on both sides of the issue.
 
Smart $ said:
We are not going to get any further on this matter. I see both sides and I would allow it IF I were the inspector... but I am not. Ask the actual inspector and you will know for certain. :happyyes:
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My thought as well but I love to hear the opinions (hence this thread) of other professionals (even those who don't agree with me) who may have a different take on the installation. By doing so you can gather background information so there is less of a chance of being surprised when proposing the question to the AHJ. :cool:
 
infinity said:
My thought as well but I love to hear the opinions (hence this thread) of other professionals (even those who don't agree with me) who may have a different take on the installation. By doing so you can gather background information so there is less of a chance of being surprised when proposing the question to the AHJ. :cool:
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I understand and took it as such from the get go. :D
 
infinity said:
Is there any potential code issue with using a service rated ATS with a 50 amp inlet box for the EM feeder in lieu of a generator? Money is tight but they want to have the option to add a generator in the future without having to reconfigure the service.
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The problem I see with this is the tricky way that it is worded.

The first thing we look at is the "Automatic Transfer Switch" portion of the question which quickly throws us into thinking that the generator needs to be sized for the full load right off the bat.

Then it says they will be using a 50 Amp inlet box for the EM feeder "In Lieu of a Generator" ,,,,,, What ????? Last time I looked a 50 amp inlet box does not produce any standby power whatsoever. The generator does that.

Then we get to the point further down the thread that they will be using the "ATS" manually with a roll up portable generator which is a complete different set of circumstances.

If you really want to install an "ATS" now, so you don't have to reconfigure the service later, I'd lean pretty hard towards a full size "ATS" rated for whatever EM panel it is feeding with whatever full size connection box for the EM side of it should they decide to install that portion of it now.

Otherwise, if you throw the "ATS" manually, and the load is to great for whatever size portable generator your using, since we don't know what size it is,
and the Breaker trips before you get inside to turn off the breakers to shed the load, who really cares ? :)


JAP>
 
jap said:
If you really want to install an "ATS" now, so you don't have to reconfigure the service later, I'd lean pretty hard towards a full size "ATS" rated for whatever EM panel it is feeding with whatever full size connection box for the EM side of it should they decide to install that portion of it now.
JAP>
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Which is what you need to do with a MTS as well. If you have a 200 amp feeder you want to back up with a 50 amp generator, you are still installing a 200 amp ATS or MTS aren't you?
 
kwired said:
Which is what you need to do with a MTS as well. If you have a 200 amp feeder you want to back up with a 50 amp generator, you are still installing a 200 amp ATS or MTS aren't you?
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Yes in this case the service rated ATS would be 200 amps and feed a 200 amp panel. I believe that I omitted that part.
 
kwired said:
Which is what you need to do with a MTS as well. If you have a 200 amp feeder you want to back up with a 50 amp generator, you are still installing a 200 amp ATS or MTS aren't you?
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Yes,
I was more making the point about the inlet attachment.

JAP>
 
infinity said:
Yes in this case the service rated ATS would be 200 amps and feed a 200 amp panel. I believe that I omitted that part.
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The issue then is not the ATS, its what wiring is put in place at this point to connect the generator to the ATS.

If I had to run something outside for a quick connect, and didn't want to have to change anything in the future, I don't know what, if anything, would deter me from running full size to the inlet connection point.

But that's just me.



JAP>
 
jap said:
The issue then is not the ATS, its what wiring is put in place at this point to connect the generator to the ATS.

If I had to run something outside for a quick connect, and didn't want to have to change anything in the future, I don't know what, if anything, would deter me from running full size to the inlet connection point.

But that's just me.



JAP>
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Possibly the added cost of a 200A receptacle instead of a 50A receptacle?
Running the larger wire but keeping the 50A receptacle does not seem to me to change the code interpretation that the AHJ would make, even though it might make later installation of a larger fixed generator easier.
 
GoldDigger said:
Possibly the added cost of a 200A receptacle instead of a 50A receptacle?
Running the larger wire but keeping the 50A receptacle does not seem to me to change the code interpretation that the AHJ would make, even though it might make later installation of a larger fixed generator easier.
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I never said anything about a receptacle.


JAP>
 
An "Inlet" could be something as simple as a PDB mounted in a 3r enclosure.

JAP>
 
I'm with ya, Oddly I've pictured all the scenarios mounted on the outside wall of this project already and I'm not even working on it.... :)


JAP>
 
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