Service Upgrade Estimate

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celtic said:
I thought NJ followed the UCC and the NEC with the amendments?

You're saying that 5% of the municipalities are not following what the State has mandated ....what municipalities might these be?

Hot Line has a thread going on the ECN site about the UCC, and was inviting the the Jersey EC's to comment on an intrest in accessing the UCC regulations. and including it in the CEU's
The small number of replys to the post shows we have a lot of current EC's that may not understand the UCC.
 
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I haven't been to ECN in like forever ....must be the new format :D :D :D ...but let's not discuss formats here ;)
 
celtic said:
I thought NJ followed the UCC and the NEC with the amendments?

You're saying that 5% of the municipalities are not following what the State has mandated ....what municipalities might these be?

Hi Celtic,

in the last 60 days 100a bellville, 200a kearny, 200a rahway. All Inspected, passed, service approval sticker on panel cover. Not an everyday event but for the work I've done in the last 60 days it might even be better than that 5% you requested. Come to think of it, I also did a 200a service in waldwick and actually the inspector just mentioned the gfi close to the service panel, and then handed me the service approval sticker. Of late the biggest problems I've had with inspectors is identifying the breakers in the panel. Some of the service installs and upgrades don't have one breaker marked. Some jobs I spend an additional hour or 2 tracing them out.

:grin:
 
anthony5712 said:
.....the inspector just mentioned the gfi close to the service panel, and then handed me the service approval sticker.

Of late the biggest problems I've had with inspectors is identifying the breakers in the panel. Some of the service installs and upgrades don't have one breaker marked. Some jobs I spend an additional hour or 2 tracing them out.

:grin:

Are you relying on the inspector to tell you what to do? (GFI, panel schedule)

No offense, but these are items that are included in the price of a service(at least for me)...are you charging the customers extra for "additional hour or 2"?
 
I see this is going nowhere in a hurry. I just wanted to respond to your 5%. I always check with the ahj when I apply for the job permit, don't you. Kind of makes the inspection process easier. just like townships with conduit or se cable for the service. In any event, have a nice day Celtic
 
anthony5712 said:
I just wanted to respond to your 5%. I always check with the ahj when I apply for the job permit, don't you.
No, I don't.
Why would I?
The NEC is amended by the State - NOT the municpality.
Check it out yourself....
On November 7, 2005 the New Jersey Division Of Codes And Standards, Department of Community Affairs published in the New Jersey Register rule changes for the Uniform Construction Code, Electrical Subcode.
http://www.nema.org/stds/fieldreps/codealerts/20051107nj.cfm

Do you install AFCI protection per 210.12(B)?
Do you ask the AHJ in every town ...is the answer EVER different?
If it is...I would have to wonder WHY? and take that AHJ to the mat on it.




anthony5712 said:
Kind of makes the inspection process easier. just like townships with conduit or se cable for the service.
The "township" has no control over SE, RMC, EMT etc.
Aagain, it's governed by the NEC.
The AHJ *may* suggest you not use SE ~ but that suggestion is based on the NEC, not the town's code.

What makes the process easy is knowing what's required and what isn't when doing a service.
We both know panel schedules are an NEC item(408.4) - adapted by the State of NJ - NOT an AHJ choice....if you don't know this, you need to know it.

anthony5712 said:
I see this is going nowhere in a hurry.
That's your decision, not mine.

anthony5712 said:
In any event, have a nice day Celtic
See ya in the funny papers :D
 
Seems a little high but just a little

Seems a little high but just a little

Shop it around why not?? The one thing that I like about this electrician is that he is replacing all breakers with new. This is the right thing to do and certainly at this price. I would get about 2700 for the same job however we are not responsible for service latterals poco is and all permits are included at that price including gfci backerboard and choice of hunter green or battleship grey. 40/40 panel it is not worth it to go less than 200 upgrade. My prices are for copper cable. I dont like to use alluminum unless it is a long underground or high amperage service
 
I must say that a deposit should be required for a job like this.

Before work starts the EC around here needs to do all this:

1. The EC already gave a free estomate
2. Get permit application and have homeowner sign it.
3. With an OK it's time to make a list, check invantory, call in an order and pick up materials, sometimes involving a trip to the supply house and then a hardware store.
4. You may need to make a phone call to the village for requirements, and check for any local code changes (many times online).
5. You might also need to call then pick up get insurance papers made out to that city and a city bond from insurance agent.
6. Drop off permit application with all required documents and maybe some drawings of the proposed work.
7. Pick up permit and pay permit fee.


In that you have 4-5 hours running around.
Say you spent $500 on materials.
Bond might be $75.
Village permit fee could be $150.
Maybe the village hit you for a local registration fee say $25.
You set a date on your scedule to do the work.

When you show up what happens when you show to do the work and the homeowner declines the work that day, tells you to hit the road, does not answer the door, or wants to play lets make a deal with the price?
Maybe they found someone $200 cheaper. They could have had second thoughts about spending the money. Or maybe they understand you are upside down in the job with no deposit and try to use that to get a lower price.


Your loss:
1. $250 permint, bond, and fees
2. ??? in non returnable material such as cut wire
3. 1 day no work scheduled (but still have to pay workers to show up at customers house)
4. More time returning item to suply house and hardware store (some suppliers charge a 10% restocking fee).
5. Time to call and fax city to take your name off the permit.
6. It could have waisted 6 hours of your time to do all this

Or:

What happens when your done and the home owner disapears, looses check book, wants to pay you less, etc.? Besides being out for the job now you need to spend cash on a lien and collections.

By not taking at least a deposit you're not only putting yourself up for a loss, you're making it harder for the rest of us that try to minimize our risks. You know there are some trades that require 100% up front?


A few years ago I talked to a retired EC. He said in the 70's they were getting $1500-$1800 for a 100A service upgrade. No GFI's or ark faults. Cold water ground was the nearest pipe. In 1978 the average price of a new home was $62,500 and gas was $0.63. In 2006 the average home sale was $230,000 (I thought it would be higher) and gas is more the $3 here. I bet I can still find shops that will do the 100 amp upgrade for the 1970's prices.
 
active 1....amen to that...

sad part of reality, I can show you a dozen contractors, right in my local area, that are giving less than 1970's prices......today.
 
A friend of mine calls me up last week...he says his "realtor friend"(REA) needs a service up on a house he just sold ~ 60A - 100A.
I tell my friend it's a minimum of $1500.
He calls the REA and tells her the number...
REA: can you do it for $1000.
CEC(me):Nope...I get $1200 just to swap out a panel
REA: Well I saw a price on the internet of $1200 for the up
CEC: Go for it.

That's ballsy!
The REA sees a price of $1200 and assumes she can get it for $1000, when she just heard my price of $1500 (minimum, mind you ;) )!
I wonder if she ever gets people asking for 50% the listed price on a house because that saw another house on the internet for that price :D

The back story on this is:
My friend (recently licensed) has done a lot of small work for this REA ~ changing devices, fixtures, etc...but nothing major.
The REA sold the house knowing the service needed an up.
The REA told the new HO's that "she someone who could do the up cheaply".....
LMAO.
Let's see her take 2% commission on a house at 50% of asking.
 
you want to know fair price ask other local contractors. prices are not the same all over America. there not the same from rural Mn to the twin cities area. 200 amp panel is common panel normally stocked. Stocked items are normally as cheap as 150 which is not stock. 200 amp materials are normal stock and are normally cheaper than non stock items. just rule of thumb not always acurate but normally are real close.
 
cschmid said:
you want to know fair price ask other local contractors.

How is another contractor ANY barometer of what's "fair"?

Contractor A may need the work ~ lowball number to get in the door
Contractor B may not even want the job ~ high number, if you really want him - you pay
Contractor C may use materials of lesser quality aka "used".
 
very true my friend. Yet only barometer that you can use to be even close. If you want to be closer than that than you can do the research of the materials from various suppliers and labor charges from other contractors. I know if you are bidding contracts here alot of the contractors supplie itemized bids which includes all charges and include percent of profit.
 
the only way to know the "fair" price for any service is to know all your costs...know what you need to charge to cover your overhead, to pay your men a good wage with benefits, to pay your material, to be able to offer good service, etc.

then, give the customer their money's worth, and then some...

to try to match price with a guy who puts in SEU and T&B panels while installing Copper and QO, is a stupid business plan....
 
Most people go into business, to better their life, and that goes for every type of business out there, years back, I made all the stuped mistakes, like looking at the other guys, as some of the posters on here are doing, It cost me dearly, in both family life, and my earnings, it was not until I was working a service upgrade at an accountants home, that I was able to see the light, he asked me if I would consider using his services, and did not ask for a discount, on the work I was doing, just consider using his services, months went by, and debts were increasing.

I finally called the accountant, and set up an appointment, we sat down with all my records, and discussed the way I operated, I can still remember seeing him sitting there with his hands over his eyes, saying you have a lot work to do, to get this operating as a business.

The one thing that changed my thinking, was he showed me actual accounts with names blocked out, and they were in the same business as me, or related trades, all doing very well, he explained overhead, and operating expenses, labor burdens, tax liabilities, budget planning, and how to go about growing the business.

There are plenty of people out there running, what they believe is a business, but only a few that actually have a business.

Most of these business operations can be described as, opening a store with a nice store front, in the case of an EC (A Nicely Lettered Truck) then putting in 10 to 14 hour days, and giving away the stock at cost, not a good hobby, and surley not a very good job.

I often hear I just want to make a certin amount every week, and I am doing ok, and that is just fine, provided that income, is not being drained when bills come in, and your saving eniough of that income, for benifits, and retirement needs.

Another big warning sign of a business heading for disaster, is well I had to take the work, to keep my men working and pay my operating costs, what that usually indicates is you din't have any planning for slow times, such as maint work, or off schedule jobs, and you surly din't include non productive hours in youe cost figures.

On the issue of bidding contracts, if your not able to support the cost of providing that contract, and earn at least a break even price then accepting it means your paying them for the privlige of working. Electrical Contracting is bidding contracts, at a given price, not an itimized list, with broken out pricing, let the other guy operate like a flea market vendor, run your operation like a professional.

If your using T&M in most cases, your not contracting, your jobbing, and you still need to apply what it cost you to operate at, break even, or a profit.
 
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Throw each other under the bus!

Throw each other under the bus!

Man... I am sickened.

We are all brother contractors. And what I see disgusts me. We're ripping each other apart on a post that a home owner wants information on.
 
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