Service upgrade failed because of 3 wire SER range wire

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Dennis Alwon said:
Just for clarity- there is no SER cable that is 3 wire. SER means 4 wires- 2 hots, neutral and a bare ground. SEU is a 3 wire cable- 2 hots and a bare ground or neutral or both.
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That is not what SER means per the UL Guide Information for "Service Entrance Cable (TYLZ)"
  • Type SE Style R - Multi-conductor cable containing an unsectioned, uninsulated conductor cabled with the insulated conductors.
  • Type SE Style U - Multi-conductor cable containing an uninsulated conductor that is distributed helically over the insulated conductor assembly.
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don_resqcapt19 said:
That is not what SER means per the UL Guide Information for "Service Entrance Cable (TYLZ)"
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It doesn't matter what the guide states. For the purpose of this thread ser for a dwelling is 4 wires and seu is 3 wires-- that is what you get when you order it from the supply company
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It doesn't matter what the guide states. For the purpose of this thread ser for a dwelling is 4 wires and seu is 3 wires-- that is what you get when you order it from the supply company
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I'll agree that when we say SER we think of 4 wire. But how I discovered that SER doesn't actually mean 4-wire is when I went in to my supply house and asked for SER. They asked if I wanted 3 or 4 wire. I told them I thought it was only 4 wire. They showed me some 3 wire and also their book on it.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
It doesn't matter what the guide states. For the purpose of this thread ser for a dwelling is 4 wires and seu is 3 wires-- that is what you get when you order it from the supply company
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That is just field use of the terms. There is nothing in the product standard that says that. Both products are available in 2,3 and 4 conductor versions.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
That is just field use of the terms. There is nothing in the product standard that says that. Both products are available in 2,3 and 4 conductor versions.
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I understand that but we are responding to an electrician
mbrooke said:
See page 2, near the top:


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Yes and it appears there are only 4 types of ser 3 wire cables. Those cables appear to have a solid equipment grounding conductor. SEU has the bare concentric ground. The OP is talking about a service at 200 amps so it is not SER it is SEU or it is ser but it has 4 wires.

I was unaware of ser with 3 conductors. I guess when you use aluminum in the small sizes that is what it is called.
 
If you don't want to replace the range line, then replace the outside meter/main with one that has branch-breaker-spaces and land the existing range line there (at the service equipment).

Here is one example...
www.hardwarestore.com

Siemens MC0816B1200RCT Meter Load Center Combination, 200 A, 120/240 V, 8-Space, 16-Circuit

Combination meter socket. 200 amp main breaker installed, Single phase, 3 wire, insta-wire neutrals. 8 spaces, 16 circuits. 120/240 volt. 22,000 AIC rating. 4 jaws. Tin plated copper bus bars. Nema type 3R outdoor enclosure. Overhead or underground feed.
www.hardwarestore.com www.hardwarestore.com
 
flashlight said:
Is this permissible ? What distinguishes fire disco from service disco ? Is it determined by where neutral/ground bond occurs ?
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Nothing other than the label you put on the outside emergency disconnect. If the label just says it is an "emergency disconnect", then that is what it is. It is still permitted to bond that disconnect to the neutral as it is on the line side of the service disconnect.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Nothing other than the label you put on the outside emergency disconnect. If the label just says it is an "emergency disconnect", then that is what it is. It is still permitted to bond that disconnect to the neutral as it is on the line side of the service disconnect.
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If you had to argue this to a court, what would you use for substantiation that the AHJ is incorrect to call the outside disconnect the service disconnect and requiring the neutral bonding be done there? It seems that just using different wording on a sign should not be the determining factor.
 
oldsparky52 said:
If you had to argue this to a court, what would you use for substantiation that the AHJ is incorrect to call the outside disconnect the service disconnect and requiring the neutral bonding be done there? It seems that just using different wording on a sign should not be the determining factor.
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As Don stated the neutral is bonded in the disconnect whether it is the emergency disconnect or the service disconnect.
 
infinity said:
As Don stated the neutral is bonded in the disconnect whether it is the emergency disconnect or the service disconnect.
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I see I used the wrong words. I am talking about (and I'm pretty sure you know this) the neutral grounding, not neutral bonding, my bad. If the neutral grounding is done in the outside disconnect then the OP has a problem, if it is done in the inside panel then he does not.

I will restate that an AHJ is going to probably want more than a label to allow the neutral grounding to be done inside at the panel instead of outside at the disconnect.
 
Here's the 2020 version:
230.85 Emergency Disconnects.
For one- and two-family dwelling units, all service conductors shall terminate in disconnecting means having a short-circuit current rating equal to or greater than the available fault current, installed in a readily accessible outdoor location. If more than one disconnect is provided, they shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be one of the following:
(1) Service disconnects marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
SERVICE DISCONNECT
(2) Meter disconnects installed per 230.82(3) and marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
METER DISCONNECT,
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
(3) Other listed disconnect switches or circuit breakers on the supply side of each service disconnect that are suitable for use as service equipment and marked as follows:
EMERGENCY DISCONNECT,
NOT SERVICE EQUIPMENT
Markings shall comply with 110.21(B).
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Even with brilliant inspectors catching this level of code detail, any misconceptions that new fuse box = new wiring has been dispelled.

Choosing where to land new service neutrals allow killer neutral-bonded appliances to persist, per NEC 250.140

Instead a new fuse box on an old house may be the most reliable indicator for opening a can of worms, with DIY wiring hazards & overloads that could never be covered by any insurance.
 
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