Set screw EMT fitting outdoors? Code reference?

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Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
I understand it is acceptable to use a set screw EMT fitting outdoors provided it is oriented downwards? Is there an NEC reference for this?

Why even do it for a difference of 20 cents? Well in some applications a set screw connector keeps the conduit tighter to the wall versus the compression nut version.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
See 358.42 which will send you to 314.15, take note of the last sentence then go to the manufacturers listing information to see if your particular fittings are listed for wet locations.

I agree with dkidd

Roger
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
And a set-screw connector oriented downwards is in fact "raintight"?
Doubtful, I don't know of any and as a matter of fact 10-15 years back EMT compression fittings lost their "wet location" listing and all had to be redesigned if they were going to be used in a wet location. IOW's, standard compression fittings don't make it so I wouldn't expect there are any set screw fittings that would .

Roger
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
And a set-screw connector oriented downwards is in fact "raintight"?

Not even close.

And what about conduit that isn't installed horizontal?

When I was in Mexico I noticed a lot of set screw connectors outdoors and I thought, well, not much code enforcement going on. And either they were good at installing duct seal where things entered the buildings, or they were getting water inside the buildings when it rained.
 

480sparky

Senior Member
Location
Iowegia
It's not so much the 'rain-tightness' of the fitting as it is the ability of the material it's made of to withstand the elements.
 

Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
If horizontal, then it's not oriented downwards and I agree, not rain tight.

As for material, I doubt there is a difference in the cast aluminum between the set-screw and compression fitting, That would not be economical to produce, same line, just different mold.

I was told it's OK, if it's not to code, then it's not to code. But you have to admit there is no risk in the application I propose.

Perhaps this is a California thing in that we have outdoor main panels - very common. These are not water tight at all but still rain tight. And show me any 3R disconnect that is water tight.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Chapel Hill, NC
Occupation
Retired Electrical Contractor
It may not be an issue with rain when the connector is oriented down but what about when someone power washers an area. I know that many areas allow nm cable connectors outside when installed in the bottom of a box with UF cable.

The point is the product is not listed for that purpose and it can get red tagged.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
If horizontal, then it's not oriented downwards and I agree, not rain tight.

As for material, I doubt there is a difference in the cast aluminum between the set-screw and compression fitting, That would not be economical to produce, same line, just different mold.

I was told it's OK, if it's not to code, then it's not to code. But you have to admit there is no risk in the application I propose.

Perhaps this is a California thing in that we have outdoor main panels - very common. These are not water tight at all but still rain tight. And show me any 3R disconnect that is water tight.

This is not a California thing , you must live and work in a region that people don't follow the code, don't know the code and are a bunch of hacks and trunk slammers.
I see hack work all the time does not mean it is acceptable , code compliant and safe.

A word of advice.
Here at MH you can learn a lot. Most of the code stuff may be newer than CA only because it takes several years of adoption procedure to adopt or amend the NEC model code.
You can learn a lot here. I do all the time. But always check the code year that a reply is made as it might be too new or outdated.
Thanks in advance. :D
 

jaggedben

Senior Member
Location
Northern California
Occupation
Solar and Energy Storage Installer
... Perhaps this is a California thing in that we have outdoor main panels - very common. These are not water tight at all but still rain tight. And show me any 3R disconnect that is water tight.

You're showing your ignorance of the meaning of certain standards.

A 3R box is not supposed to be water tight. It is designed to prevent ingress of water from the top only, and drain out any significant amount of moisture that enters from the sides. There are restrictions on how you can mount a 3R enclosure to ensure this happens (e.g. you can't mount it sideways or upside down). A 3R box is not 'rain tight', that isn't part of the language of that NEMA standard.

A raintight coupler or connector is not supposed to allow water to enter the raceway, regardless of the direction it's installed. That includes water that's streaming along the outside of the raceway, which is how most of it will get inside the raceway if you use set-screw couplers outdoors, even if you install them horizontal with set screws down. If raintight fittings are used with NEMA 4 enclosures then in theory that's not supposed to allow any water to enter.

I've seen enough water get inside EMT installed with actual rain-tight fittings that were not so badly installed, that I can tell you that set screw fittings don't stand a chance of keeping water out in a good rain.

Hardly anybody installs drains or uses duct seal in all the places they should, but that's probably another thread.
 

Cow

Senior Member
Location
Eastern Oregon
Occupation
Electrician
Hardly anybody installs drains or uses duct seal in all the places they should, but that's probably another thread.

I had to chuckle reading this. We do lots of dairy work. We install drains and duct seal in lots of places we shouldn't have too....:D
 

Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
You're showing your ignorance of the meaning of certain standards.

And you are showing your ignorance of basic physics.

You have a set screw connector under a box at least two to three feet off the ground. Now even in the heaviest rain, how is water going to get up inside the conduit? It would have to fill the minute gap around the conduit inside the fitting then fall back down into the conduit cavity. Just how much force would be required to do that short of a deep flood?

I was told by a licensed EC this was OK. I just thought would ask here. I don't appreciate being called ignorant. After all I hold the EE degree and license! I guess I don't have enough experience installing HVAC units and swimming pool filters!
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
You're showing your ignorance of the meaning of certain standards.

A 3R box is not supposed to be water tight. It is designed to prevent ingress of water from the top only, and drain out any significant amount of moisture that enters from the sides. There are restrictions on how you can mount a 3R enclosure to ensure this happens (e.g. you can't mount it sideways or upside down). A 3R box is not 'rain tight', that isn't part of the language of that NEMA standard.

A raintight coupler or connector is not supposed to allow water to enter the raceway, regardless of the direction it's installed. That includes water that's streaming along the outside of the raceway, which is how most of it will get inside the raceway if you use set-screw couplers outdoors, even if you install them horizontal with set screws down. If raintight fittings are used with NEMA 4 enclosures then in theory that's not supposed to allow any water to enter.

I've seen enough water get inside EMT installed with actual rain-tight fittings that were not so badly installed, that I can tell you that set screw fittings don't stand a chance of keeping water out in a good rain.

Hardly anybody installs drains or uses duct seal in all the places they should, but that's probably another thread.

And you are showing your ignorance of basic physics.

You have a set screw connector under a box at least two to three feet off the ground. Now even in the heaviest rain, how is water going to get up inside the conduit? It would have to fill the minute gap around the conduit inside the fitting then fall back down into the conduit cavity. Just how much force would be required to do that short of a deep flood?

I was told by a licensed EC this was OK. I just thought would ask here. I don't appreciate being called ignorant. After all I hold the EE degree and license! I guess I don't have enough experience installing HVAC units and swimming pool filters!

Now you are going after a long time member of this forum.
Just because you asked a EC does not mean he knows his stuff. There is such garbage work out there I can vomit. Some of which is very out right dangerous and done by licensed contractors. I won't do such. I walk. It's not up for negotiation.

You need to use material listed for the purpose. There may be a code reference to the code references a listing agency.
You are arguing about nonsense.

I have worked in areas of California near the beach where water goes uphill, where it gets soggy in soffits, where everything needs to be treated as if it was going to hosed down.
Many years ago we had to stop using the plain old compression fittings for ones that had an additional seal. That is the code. We don't get to argue its requirement. The only time is during the code adoption process.

The code states:
Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete
slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations
subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as
vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed
to weather.

Raintight. Constructed or protected so that exposure to
a beating rain will not result in the entrance of water
under specified test conditions.

300.38 Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade.
Where raceways are installed in wet locations above
grade, the interior of these raceways shall be considered
to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables
installed in raceways in wet locations above grade shall
comply with 310.10(C).

358.42 Couplings and Connectors. Couplings and
connectors used with EMT shall be made up tight.
Where buried in masonry or concrete, they shall be
concretetight type. Where installed in wet locations,
they shall comply with 314.15.


Chew on that ,
 

Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
The code states:
Location, Wet. Installations underground or in concrete
slabs or masonry in direct contact with the earth; in locations
subject to saturation with water or other liquids, such as
vehicle washing areas; and in unprotected locations exposed
to weather.

Raintight. Constructed or protected so that exposure to
a beating rain will not result in the entrance of water
under specified test conditions.

300.38 Raceways in Wet Locations Above Grade.
Where raceways are installed in wet locations above
grade, the interior of these raceways shall be considered
to be a wet location. Insulated conductors and cables
installed in raceways in wet locations above grade shall
comply with 310.10(C).

358.42 Couplings and Connectors. Couplings and
connectors used with EMT shall be made up tight.
Where buried in masonry or concrete, they shall be
concretetight type. Where installed in wet locations,
they shall comply with 314.15.

Chew on that ,


I fail to see how an EMT set screw connector under a box two to three feet above grade is subject to any of the above cautions. And no this is not at the beach or otherwise subject to flooding. Plus if you have a two foot or higher flood, you will have plenty of water in your electrical system regardless of the type of EMT connector you have outside. Even if shot with a hose, how is water going to climb up inside the fitting? What hold the hose right under it. Even then how much water will actually get down inside the conduit? And not too many people are going to shoot a hose at an electrical box.

Common sense!
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
And you are showing your ignorance of basic physics.

You have a set screw connector under a box at least two to three feet off the ground. Now even in the heaviest rain, how is water going to get up inside the conduit? It would have to fill the minute gap around the conduit inside the fitting then fall back down into the conduit cavity. Just how much force would be required to do that short of a deep flood?

I agree with your logic of how is water getting in other then pressurized spray situations - but if in bottom of 3R cabinet - they are not listed for such spray either. Bottom line is they are not listed for this use no matter what common sense says - that is how codes and inspections work anymore.

At one time flexible metal conduit was allowed outdoors in some applications - like a whip to an AC unit - as long as it had a "drip loop" so to speak below both terminations of the raceway and entered bottom wall of both enclosures. Code making panels did use common sense at one time, how is water going to get inside the enclosures in that application? It was probably removed when a manufacturer decided it is not a wet location wiring method and wanted to sell more of some other product that is listed for the purpose, they found a way to convince CMP it needed changed.

Water in EMT, the "new" raintight EMT fittings, and such - IMO all big joke to sell the new product - which BTW are a PITA to install compared to the old standard compression fittings which held out water fairly well.

IMO more water ends up inside such raceways because of condensation then ever leaks around old compression fittings - and in some cases I'd even be bold enough to say you may get more water inside from condensation then set screw fittings would leak into the raceway. But again you must use a conductor with type W in the insulation type - so what is the big deal?

3R panels - I have seen so many that have "raintight" raceway/fittings feeding into the top via bolt on "raintight" hub, yet condensation still ran down inside of raceway, followed conductors right into main breaker or onto bus and caused problems:slaphead: So much for raintight fittings saving the day.
 

Andy Delle

Senior Member
Location
Los Angeles CA
I agree with your logic of how is water getting in other then pressurized spray situations - but if in bottom of 3R cabinet - they are not listed for such spray either. Bottom line is they are not listed for this use no matter what common sense says - that is how codes and inspections work anymore.

At one time flexible metal conduit was allowed outdoors in some applications - like a whip to an AC unit - as long as it had a "drip loop" so to speak below both terminations of the raceway and entered bottom wall of both enclosures. Code making panels did use common sense at one time, how is water going to get inside the enclosures in that application? It was probably removed when a manufacturer decided it is not a wet location wiring method and wanted to sell more of some other product that is listed for the purpose, they found a way to convince CMP it needed changed.

Water in EMT, the "new" raintight EMT fittings, and such - IMO all big joke to sell the new product - which BTW are a PITA to install compared to the old standard compression fittings which held out water fairly well.

IMO more water ends up inside such raceways because of condensation then ever leaks around old compression fittings - and in some cases I'd even be bold enough to say you may get more water inside from condensation then set screw fittings would leak into the raceway. But again you must use a conductor with type W in the insulation type - so what is the big deal?

3R panels - I have seen so many that have "raintight" raceway/fittings feeding into the top via bolt on "raintight" hub, yet condensation still ran down inside of raceway, followed conductors right into main breaker or onto bus and caused problems:slaphead: So much for raintight fittings saving the day.

Well I do thank you for a civil rebuttal. More than I can say for some around here.
 

Sierrasparky

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician ,contractor
Well I do thank you for a civil rebuttal. More than I can say for some around here.

Here is a civil suggestion. If you think things are silly please participate in the code adoption process. C
A is currently under the 2018 code adoption cycle. They listen to professionals. I have shaped a code or 2 in my tenure.


Things like set screw connectors are not worthy of a argument though IMHO. There are much more important issues.
 
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