Several arc fault breakers in panels

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Look at it this way ....
"They" want us to use AFCI ...."they" also sell the panels...."they" are making alotta money with their "design problem" ~ or is it calculated profit?
 
celtic said:
...."they" are making alotta money with their "design problem" ~ or is it calculated profit?
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Bingo! You hit the bullseye>
 
I would appreciate that if you are going to reply to my post that you do just that........I did not post this question just to start another thread on panel sizing! Start a new thread. Some of us try to get a true concensus from real life electrical inspectors, engineers, plans examiners, contractors, not from people just looking to kill some time in their day.
Please, this is an EXISTING CONDITION, we are not looking for what SHOULD have been done at this point, we are looking for any information anyone would have concerning this problem and what may have been done--in an existing installation--to deal with the heating problem. Also, if anyone has any criteria concerning this effect.
Please, if you wish to stretch this out to talk about the price of beans in Chicago, do it on your own thread and on your own time.
Thank you.
 
Sorry if it seems off track to you. But, having to install oversized panels to satisfy the heat problem from AFCI's is a real problem to me.
 
Pretty harsh earshavewalls. I believe we answered many of your question. And you should know that post always seem to stray-- at least we got most of your questions answered--- Maybe you think not.
 
It might pay to call the manufacturer of your panel and see what they have to say. They should be informed about field problems. It may be necessary for you to install another panel or panels so that you can distribute the load and get the heat down. Ventilate the electric room also.[Dennis types faster]
 
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For anyone interested, the ROP (9-117) from Eaton Corporation (odd that they also submitted a whole house AFCI proposal;) ) that will do away with 42 cicuit limitations on Panels can be read on this page

Roger

Edit; the ROP is on page 422
 
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Thanks everyone. It's good to know that there is still a place out there where professionals can go to share information............
 
AFCI's

AFCI's

since you did not get a direct answer to your question , I sense that may be said with a lil scarcasm...... however, if you do mean it, once you find an answer or solution how about coming back and sharing it with us. I'm sure it isn't a unique situation and I'd be interested in knowing the solution.

I had a similiar sitaution with breakers (not AFCI) controlling HID lighting, but I was fortunate that there was enough panel space that I could spread them out and eliminate the problem. I have a vague recelection that the subject was addressed in some panelboard literature published by the manufacturers.
 
earshavewalls said:
Thanks everyone. It's good to know that there is still a place out there where professionals can go to share information............
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Sorry you felt you got shafted here.

Read around some of the OT stuff and you will notice..

Roger brought up the fact that it was Cutler Hammer that is behind the removal of the 42 circuit limit.

Mike03a3 pointed out Cutler Hammer recommends spacing the breakers apart from each other.

So yes heat is an issue, the manufacturers already know that.

Have thermal images taken of these hot panels, document it all and send it up the chain. CYA and if anything happens down the road you can say you brought it up.
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Niot exactly true-- art. 210.18-- Guest rooms and guest suites
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I missed that.
But perhaps 210.18 will not apply if the guest room only has a microwave and small fridge. Those are not permanent.
 
I would appreciate that if you are going to reply to my post that you do just that
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If you look around you will notice that many post have a way of morphing. There is nothing personal in that. It just happens, it happens here and it happens around the gang box and next to the water cooler, that's just the way of life. No one in particular owns a thread, DO THEY?
 
For better or worse we often let threads go OT.

Maybe ears could have chosen his words a little better, but lets forget about that and move on. :)
 
Thank you everyone for your input. I was a bit short earlier, and I apologize for that.
I did contact Cutler Hammer (the manufacturer of the service equipment and arc fault breakers in question) and they are sending a representative out to observe the situation and hopefully provide some solutions or at least comfort us and let us know that everything will be alright.
There is a bulletin availabe from Cutler Hammer (Eaton) which addresses heat rise in arc fault breakers. It states that this is a normal condition and that in some cases temperatures were measured as high as 187F. They also stated that this was well within UL operating parameters for these breakers. The only potential problem mentioned on the phone to me was that, at these temperatures, the breakers COULD trip slightly sooner than they were designed to trip. The technician said that the heat MAY shorten the life-span of the breaker, but there is no data to confirm this.
I will post the final results of this experience as information comes in.

Thanks again
 
Thanks for the reply. BTW 187F comes out to 86.1C. Does that affect the termination temperature aspects of the breaker? Or, how about the adjacent breaker that's 75C. Now all wiring must be fully rated 90C? A new can of worms from CH.:confused:
 
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Yow!

Yow!

earshavewalls said:
There is a bulletin availabe from Cutler Hammer (Eaton) which addresses heat rise in arc fault breakers. It states that this is a normal condition and that in some cases temperatures were measured as high as 187F.
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That's 86? C!

Let's see, we put termination limited to 75? C in an enclosure with an ambient temp of 86? C and have that terminal physically (and thermally) attached to the heat source (the AFCI breaker) that will, arguably, be HOTTER the 86? C, and this only results in some "potential problem", "could" and "may" equivocations. . .

I smell somethin'. . . .

I don't think its the breaker.
 
It's a conundrum for sure. New Jersey will probably do the right thing on AFCI's. What will the rest of us poor slobs do? The manufacturers need a solution fast or maybe all the states will drop the 2008 AFCI requirements.
 
If my memory is working today, each 10C rise in temperature halves the life of the electronics, so the hotter AFCIs are going to die prematurely. I have no idea if "die" means "will switch off and stay off" or "no longer trips under arc fault conditions".

From where I'm sitting 86C in a panel is way too hot, and I concur the easiest way to reduce that temperature is to have less breakers per panel. Derating panels with number of AFCIs fitted, who would have thought...
 
earshavewalls said:
There is a bulletin availabe from Cutler Hammer (Eaton) which addresses heat rise in arc fault breakers. It states that this is a normal condition and that in some cases temperatures were measured as high as 187F.
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Ears,

Is there a link to that bulletin?
 
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