Several arc fault breakers in panels

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Al, I agree. The problem is just with the 2 pole afci's. I hope that the electrician on Ear's job pulled enough neutral conductors.

Of course we still don't know if that will cure the heat problem.
 
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If the branch circuit homeruns can be configured to allow single pole AFCIs, then, IMO, those panels are going to get even hotter for doubling the number of AFCI power supplies and processors, as well as additional neutral terminal heat.
 
Al, this language was from instructions for 2 pole

WARNING


FAILURE TO FOLLOW THESE INSTRUCTIONS COULD RESULT IN DEATH, PERSONAL INJURY OR PROPERTY DAMAGE.
1. Circuit breaker should be installed by a qualified electrician only.
2. Install circuit breaker on a single phase 120/240 VAC 60 Hz power supply system.
Click to expand...

I would love to know the name and number of those in the photo!
 
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Two things M.D.

(1) To check that something goofy isn't going on click on the "Preview Post" button instead of the "Submit Reply" button. You can see what it will look like.

If you need to change something, you can scroll down below the Preview to the "Reply to Thread" box and make your changes. Pressing the "Preview Post" again will refresh the Preview screen.

When an unexpected size change like this happens, it is because of some automatic PHP coding by the Forum software. You can over ride it by pressing the "Switch Editor Mode" button in the upper right corner. . .the button looks like this:

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Looking at your post, some automatic PHP code was added to the words. It looks like this:

PHP: 
 [FONT=Arial][SIZE=3]
 
[B]I would love to know the name and number of those in the photo![/B][/SIZE][/FONT]
You can edit out the stuff to get it to just text so it looks like this:

PHP: 
I would love to know the name and number of those in the photo!

(2) Second thing. I'm talking about Single Pole instructions.
M. D. said:
Al, this language was from instructions for 2 pole
Click to expand...
 
M. D. said:
I would love to know the name and number of those in the photo!
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You mean these?
150_M_CHAFCI.jpg

I'd say they are, from left to right, the CH120AF and the CH220AF.
 
No, I meant the ones in question from "ears",. Thanks for the info on the font fix


al hildenbrand said:
You mean these?
150_M_CHAFCI.jpg

I'd say they are, from left to right, the CH120AF and the CH220AF.
Click to expand...
 
The Final results?

The Final results?

Well, it certainly has been a while since I have posted anything on this topic, but the results are in!
The engineer of record for the project, as well as Eaton (Cutler Hammer) have come up with an explanation and justification of the condition they have created. They say that everything is operating within U.L. test conditions and specifications and that 140F is acceptable as an operating temperature.
We required a letter, sealed and signed by the engineer, stating this. The engineer provided the letter, and it appears that a Certificate of Occupancy will be issued presently.
I am very disappointed that I have not heard back from Underwriter's Laboratory after filing a field report concerning this issue with them. They have not even bothered to tell me that my concerns were not warranted (if indeed this is the case). What good is it to have a third party testing agency that you must rely on for approvals of products if you cannot get them to follow up on a jurisdictional concern? I do not blame the engineer and Cutler Hammer for doing everything they could think of to support their design and products. I DO blame an agency like U.L. for not at least following through on a concern from a jurisdiction.
Good luck to all out there who run into this condition in the future. Let's hope that these devices truly are safe at this operating temperature. I believe they will be safe, but I have concerns about the life expectancy at this constant operating temperature. And let's hope that third party testing agencies take jurisdiction's inquiries seriously and at least respond to the concerns.
Thanks for all of your replies!
 
Thanks for the update, Ears. I sure wouldn't want to be the building owner in this fiasco. The warranty must read, "Guaranteed 'til we leave." And, you'll be leaving soon.
 
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They say that everything is operating within U.L. test conditions and specifications and that 140F is acceptable as an operating temperature.
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So if you use 60?C wire, it has an ampacity of zero amps!!!
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
So if you use 60?C wire, it has an ampacity of zero amps!!!
Don
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Maybe the copper.org people will get in on this so they can promote upsizing all residential branch circuits to a minimum of 4/0. :roll:
 
What about the issue of installing these on the 120/208V system vs. the 120/240V system as required by the manufacturer? As an engineer, I would have required a letter from the manufacturer stating that his 120/240V product has been tested properly on a 120/208V system.
 
Dave_PE said:
What about the issue of installing these on the 120/208V system vs. the 120/240V system as required by the manufacturer? As an engineer, I would have required a letter from the manufacturer stating that his 120/240V product has been tested properly on a 120/208V system.
Click to expand...

When these things melt down and cause some sort of harm , that is when Eaton (C.H.) will say that were installed improperly and the E.C. will be going for a ride. As an Electrician I would demand such a letter to cover my back side.
 
The reply to the issue of 120/240 1-phase compared to 120/208 3-phase was that these breakers are essentially single pole breakers that must be tied together with a common trip handle because of the shared neutral. So, they won't be able to use that argument when (if) the system breaks down.
Oh, and the temperature rating of the wiring used for these breakers is 90C, but the deration comes in at 75C because that is the ratings of the terminals in the panel. They are dangerously close to going over that at 140F.
It's in the hands of those engineers and/or manufacturers who are swearing that this is a safe installation. For everyone's sake, I hope they are right (I just have a sneaky suspicion that they are not 'completely' right).
 
I just finished a 5 story high 12 unit condo project where the engineer specd arc faults on all 120 volt circuits. I was worried about the heat also but did not detect excessive heat. There were 28 circuits in a 40 circuit main panel. The journeymen who built the panels put all of them next to each other. When I arrived to take the job over I thought I might have to seperate them but no problems have occured in the 6 month since we finished the job.
 
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