Shared neutrals used anymore?

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Barbqranch

Senior Member
Location
Arcata, CA
Occupation
Plant maintenance electrician Semi-retired
Let me preface this by saying I don't normally wire houses. But couldn't you use a 2 pole breaker w/ a MWBC to power the refrigerator and some of the lights, so that if no power to refrigerator, then you are more likely to know it since lights don't work?
 
I am also curious if people are still using 4 wire MWBC's specifically for LED and electronic ballasted lighting?
And if so do any of you have concerns about harmonics and upsize the neutrals?
Seems like most lights these days feed back a distorted waveform.
Yes I still use. I have measured the neutral of balanced three phase MWBC's serving electronic ballasts and only see an amp or two for a fully loaded (16 amp) 20 amp circuit. I have no concerns about using a standard size neuter
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I am also curious if people are still using 4 wire MWBC's specifically for LED and electronic ballasted lighting?
And if so do any of you have concerns about harmonics and upsize the neutrals?
Seems like most lights these days feed back a distorted waveform.
How often are people loading said light circuits to near circuit ampacity, other than maybe where high bays or other high output luminaires are being used? The smaller room applications possibly using similar number of circuits as with older technologies even though less load, they don't want to take out every room or every room on a floor, or similar when fault occurs in one lumminaire, or to not have to shut everything off to service something in one room.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Let me preface this by saying I don't normally wire houses. But couldn't you use a 2 pole breaker w/ a MWBC to power the refrigerator and some of the lights, so that if no power to refrigerator, then you are more likely to know it since lights don't work?
don't see why you couldn't. Is design decision and not any sort of requirement.
 

ActionDave

Chief Moderator
Staff member
Location
Durango, CO, 10 h 20 min from the winged horses.
Occupation
Licensed Electrician
I am also curious if people are still using 4 wire MWBC's specifically for LED and electronic ballasted lighting?
And if so do any of you have concerns about harmonics and upsize the neutrals?
Seems like most lights these days feed back a distorted waveform.
I've done some sizable retail spaces with all electronic ballasts and used 4 wire MWBCs throughout without problem or worry. Most had fixtures that came pre wired with relock configured with MWBC. Been back to do service work over ten or more years and haven't seen any problems

More recently been converting gobs of existing fixtures to LED tubes or remove and replace with new LED trouffers with existing MWBCs, no problems.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
How often are people loading said light circuits to near circuit ampacity
Pretty often in Oregon actually. 1000W HPS grow lights are pretty common here.
A common set up is to put 16 amps of load on a 20 amp 277V lighting circuit. I see severely overloaded lighting circuits with 21 or 22 amps often. oregon.jpg
 
Pretty often in Oregon actually. 1000W HPS grow lights are pretty common here.
A common set up is to put 16 amps of load on a 20 amp 277V lighting circuit. I see severely overloaded lighting circuits with 21 or 22 amps often. View attachment 2554387

And those are exactly one of the types of installs I have installed and measured:. A 20 amp full boat with 4 - 1000w hps with electronic ballasts per leg, about 16 amps. I got about 2 amps on the neutral. Obviously YMMV with different ballasts, but I have not seen any issue.
 

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
And those are exactly one of the types of installs I have installed and measured:. A 20 amp full boat with 4 - 1000w hps with electronic ballasts per leg, about 16 amps. I got about 2 amps on the neutral. Obviously YMMV with different ballasts, but I have not seen any issue.
Thank you, good to know.
 
Those type of installs really make you appreciate the importance of derating and the 80% rule: One room has 104 of those lights. The panel board gets uncomfortably warm, to the point I am paranoid about tripping on thermal, but its been 4 years and I have not had a trip. Emt with 2 boats in it gets just about too hot to touch for more than 5-10 seconds.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Pretty often in Oregon actually. 1000W HPS grow lights are pretty common here.
A common set up is to put 16 amps of load on a 20 amp 277V lighting circuit. I see severely overloaded lighting circuits with 21 or 22 amps often. View attachment 2554387
I excluded those in my question.

How often are people loading said light circuits to near circuit ampacity, other than maybe where high bays or other high output luminaires are being used? The smaller room applications possibly using similar number of circuits as with older technologies even though less load, they don't want to take out every room or every room on a floor, or similar when fault occurs in one lumminaire, or to not have to shut everything off to service something in one room.
 

cside

New User
Location
NC
Occupation
inspector
While considering MWBC a section of the code missed because of the location. 313 (B) this section requires you to pigtail the neutral. You may not rely on the device for continuity.
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
Doesn't that just needlessly create a "Trouble in one circuit shut down two" situation?

JAP>
Well I suppose it does come to that but since I've always used double pole breakers for those in homes anyway it does not make a difference for me. In terms of trouble shooting I just disconnect one energized conductor at a time and see which one is tripping the breaker. I would do the same thing with an AFCI and have done so. If both energized Conductors still trip the circuit then I have a neutral to ground fault and I am really on a treasure hunt.
I have to say that it is nice to be retired were the only jobs I do are charitable ones. I got to rewire an entire house in West [by God] Virginia for the mother of a developmentally arrested adult child. It was a lot of work and I had to sleep rough but I found it very rewarding. It reminded me, a little bit, of my time fighting Wildfires in the west. Cold burgers and warm shakes yum.

Not being on the job much does make it a lot harder to keep up with changes in code, new materials...

--
Tom Horne
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
You can always use the first opening exception w/ AFCI requirements. You would still have to separate the neutral from that point going forward, but it can sometimes be easier. Then again, now you have to deal with protection devices all throughout the home as opposed to one singular location.

Personally, I avoid MWBC's and just pull dedicated neutrals. Until major changes to AFCI requirements are made or not made, that's the direction we're going in, like it or not. One could argue that you're following code in being mindful of future applications by avoiding MWBC's.

Personally, I don't think the cost of one wire length merits MWBC's in smaller branch circuits. With larger circuits a valid argument could be made in regards to cost of the conductor, but in 99% of residential branch circuit applications, the cost savings is negligible... especially when compared to the cost of the future work needed to separate the MWBC into two circuits for AFCI, GFCI protection.

With the dual circuit NMC that is available now I find the time saved a real plus. It brings the time saving of a MWBC with the reduced loss of function from a breaker trip of having separate circuits. I do really love the one cable to pull aspect.

--
Tom Horne
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
I personally wish that the metallic wiring method exemption for AFCIs was universal.

In fact, I'd previously suggested the idea of having a menu of 'enhanced safety systems' where the installer would pick from a list of systems that increase price for increased safety, and picking one branch of the menu would mean that you didn't have to pick from the other.

For example:

1) Install AFCI devices on all circuits
or
2) Use metallic wiring methods with GFCI devices
or
3) Use metallic wiring methods with advanced hard wire smoke detectors
or
4) Install sprinklers.

So if you spent the money on sprinklers you wouldn't have to spend it on AFCIs. IMHO sprinklers give better life safety 'bang for the buck' than AFCIs, though 'nuisance tripping' with sprinklers is rather more of a mess.....

-Jon
For the sake of my continuing education how do you get a "nuisance trip" on a Wet Pipe Domestic Automatic Sprinkler System. There are only 2 ways that I can think of to make a wet pipe sprinkler system discharge water. One is to subject one or more of its sprinkler heads to a temperature greater than ~130 degrees Fahrenheit long enough to overcome the thermal lag of the fusible element which is holding the cap tight to a sprinkler heads discharge port. The other is to physically damage the sprinkler head or the piping. In the first case the system is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. It is keeping the temperature of the compartment down to a survivable level and markedly reducing the smoke production by directly suppressing the fire. In the second case I would hardly call a would be golfer's back swing through the sprinkler head a nuisance trip.

I did once respond to a fire sprinkler systen's water flow alarm in a warehouse occupancy were, because of the inadequate width of the aisles, a fork lift operator was backing out of an aisle blocked by other work and broke every single sprinkler head off all the way up the aisle. As each one broke he was already past it and he could not see the water coming down because he was looking in the direction he was backing and the load on the forks blocked his view of the aisle behind him. The engineer can be proud of his design though. Each of those sprinkler heads was discharging it's designed 50 Gallons per Minute X ~8 heads. The owner must have been a truly righteous fella because somebody up there surely loved him. Every single crate on that aisle was intended to be shipped on flat beds and flat cars. No water damage at all. We used up all six of the replacement sprinklers in the spares cabinet and 2 sets of sprinkler tongs but we got the sprinkler system back in service and returned to quarters none the worse for wear. As long as I didn't have to use the 8 Gallon; at 8.33 pounds to the gallon; back pack water vacuum I was a happy camper. That dammed thing weighs ~80 pounds when full. "Oh for the life of a Fireman."

--
Tom Horne
 

hornetd

Senior Member
Location
Maryland
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician, Retired
I am also curious if people are still using 4 wire MWBC's specifically for LED and electronic ballasted lighting?
And if so do any of you have concerns about harmonics and upsize the neutrals?
Seems like most lights these days feed back a distorted waveform.
I got a marked reduction in harmonic current when we switched Fluorescent lighting to LEDs. Was I measuring that wrong. I didn't know that LEDs produced a lot of harmonics.

--
Tom Horne
 

synchro

Senior Member
Location
Chicago, IL
Occupation
EE
Pretty often in Oregon actually. 1000W HPS grow lights are pretty common here.
A common set up is to put 16 amps of load on a 20 amp 277V lighting circuit. I see severely overloaded lighting circuits with 21 or 22 amps often.
And those are exactly one of the types of installs I have installed and measured:. A 20 amp full boat with 4 - 1000w hps with electronic ballasts per leg, about 16 amps. I got about 2 amps on the neutral. Obviously YMMV with different ballasts, but I have not seen any issue.
Probably the worst case for neutral current would be if you switched off one phase of a 4-wire 3-phase MWBC. Then the fundamental 60Hz current in the neutral would be the same as each phase current (assuming they're equal), and the harmonic current would add to that.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
For the sake of my continuing education how do you get a "nuisance trip" on a Wet Pipe Domestic Automatic Sprinkler System. There are only 2 ways that I can think of to make a wet pipe sprinkler system discharge water.

No system is perfect, and I am sure there have been sprinkler system discharges without fires. With that said, they are very rare, and sprinklers are very effective with very good 'bang for the buck's, much more so IMHO than AFCI devices.

Jon
 
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