sharing a neutral

[ohm]

No, I see the ground still connected to the source neutral, but I see the load neutral removed from the source.

I firmly believe you are looking at it wrong.

More importantly when that section of conductor disappears the author of the presentation spelled out on the screen the neutral has been opened.

At this point I have to think your just messing with us.

I agree iwire, the dots add a little confusion because they imply that is where the service drop is connected. The neutral connected to the EGC. But as you say the narrative and the calculations clearly show that the power point author meant that the neutral was now open not the EGC.

 

[Besoeker]

No, I see the ground still connected to the source neutral, but I see the load neutral removed from the source.

I firmly believe you are looking at it wrong.

More importantly when that section of conductor disappears the author of the presentation spelled out on the screen the neutral has been opened.

At this point I have to think your just messing with us.

I'm not messing with anyone, sir. I have neither the need nor desire to do so.
The ground is clearly shown as not connecting to anything.
The neutral is shown connected to both loads.
The before and after:

The only difference shown is the disconnection of the ground. The neutral remains connected.
Under normal operation the ground should carry no current so disconnecting it won't affect voltage distribution.

 

[iwire]

What your arrow is pointing to is the NEUTRAL conductor.

Do you see the black dot right below the word connected?

That black 'dot' is the neutral point of the supply.

The conductor leaving the left side of the dot is the grounding electrode conductor.

The conductor leaving the right side of the dot is the circuits neutral conductor.

 

[Besoeker]

The conductor leaving the right side of the dot is the circuits neutral conductor.

With the ground dsconnected there is no conductor leaving the right side of the dot.

 

[iwire]

With the ground dsconnected there is no conductor leaving the right side of the dot.

I can only say your mistaken, the person who created the presentation claims that conductor is the neutral, they further claim that it becomes disconnected.

Others see it the same way.

Good luck with your position.

 

[Besoeker]

I can only say your mistaken, the person who created the presentation claims that conductor is the neutral, they further claim that it becomes disconnected.

Others see it the same way.

Good luck with your position.

The only thing shown as disconnected is the ground. Disconnection of ground makes no difference to the circuit voltage distribution. No ifs and no buts. The principles of a center tapped supply are quite simple. Ground isn't the same as neutral.
But, despite the simplicity, this seems to have turned into something of a pissing contest.
That's not my bag.
I'm out.

 

[brian john]

Lousy drawing IMO, I was with Besoeker on this till I realized the drawing is at fault.

 

[iwire]

Lousy drawing IMO, I was with Besoeker on this till I realized the drawing is at fault.

I agree it is a lousy drawing.

 

[steelersman]

I'm not messing with anyone, sir. I have neither the need nor desire to do so.
The ground is clearly shown as not connecting to anything.
The neutral is shown connected to both loads.
The before and after:

The only difference shown is the disconnection of the ground. The neutral remains connected.
Under normal operation the ground should carry no current so disconnecting it won't affect voltage distribution.

I think I see why you're thinking this. Maybe you're looking at the blue box that shows the values and looking at the lines from the blue box as being circuit conductors when they are not. Just focus only on the resistors (loads), and you should see the light.

 

[LarryFine]

I think I see why you're thinking this. Maybe you're looking at the blue box that shows the values and looking at the lines from the blue box as being circuit conductors when they are not. Just focus only on the resistors (loads), and you should see the light.

I believe that the blue boxes represent loads, that the resistors are merely other non-specific loads in parallel with the blue boxes, and that the dot with the ground symbol represents the panel neutral bus.

Further, the line which remains intact in both diagrams represents the circuit neutral between loads. The line segment removed in the second diagram represents the neutral conductor back to the supply.

Removal of that line represents disconneting the circuit neutral from the supply neutral. Disconnection of the main bonding jumper would be represented by separating the ground symbol from the dot.

 

[steelersman]

I believe that the blue boxes represent loads, that the resistors are merely other non-specific loads in parallel with the blue boxes, and that the dot with the ground symbol represents the panel neutral bus.

Further, the line which remains intact in both diagrams represents the circuit neutral between loads. The line segment removed in the second diagram represents the neutral conductor back to the supply.

Removal of that line represents disconneting the circuit neutral from the supply neutral. Disconnection of the main bonding jumper would be represented by separating the ground symbol from the dot.

Larry if you follow the entire presentation you'll see that the blue boxes are just the values for the 2 resistors and the third blue box is the value of the 2 resistors in series.

 

[76nemo]

And how is this helping the OP??? Besoeker said over and out, leave it be, and maybe the OP can get back to us before this gets closed. I was able to see your point steelersman, but let's let it ride:wink:

Everyone have a good weekend? Pretty boring here

 

[steelersman]

And how is this helping the OP??? Besoeker said over and out, leave it be, and maybe the OP can get back to us before this gets closed. I was able to see your point steelersman, but let's let it ride:wink:

Everyone have a good weekend? Pretty boring here

Finally I'm right and a few people can admit it! I'll try to lay it to rest!

 

[brian john]

Finally I'm right and a few people can admit it! I'll try to lay it to rest!

There is a first time for everything

 

[duhhuh]

Mr. duhhuh does the pot or any of the branch circuits have working TVSS or surge protection? Was there any lightning activity in the area before the failures? Have you performed an autopsy on the dead pots yet? A pix might be useful.

Not at the local panel. There is a TVSS... 400A clamp, at the Main Dist. Panel, which feeds 12 additional panels. All 13 sub panels have 125A Main. there have not any "issues" on any circuit in the other panels.

Regarding storms in the area at that time, no there was none.

No, I have not taken a teardown look at the coffee pot yet.

Personally, I have almost come to the conclusion that the new coffee pot was simply defective. I currently have Amprobe DM-III MultiTesters set up monitoring the circuits in question thru Tuesday the 14th. At the panel, all I am getting amp wise on any of the office circuits, is around .8A to 1A. This has been consistent using an Amprobe ACD 10 Pro clamp on, an Ideal 61-704 clamp-on/multimiter, and Fluke T51000 Open Jaw. In the one particular office, we would see a spike of up to almost 7A whenever the gal used her printer. Outside of that - nothing.


Will give an update once data is assessed.

thanks

 

[ohm]

Not at the local panel. There is a TVSS... 400A clamp, at the Main Dist. Panel, which feeds 12 additional panels. All 13 sub panels have 125A Main. there have not any "issues" on any circuit in the other panels.

Regarding storms in the area at that time, no there was none.

No, I have not taken a teardown look at the coffee pot yet.

Personally, I have almost come to the conclusion that the new coffee pot was simply defective. I currently have Amprobe DM-III MultiTesters set up monitoring the circuits in question thru Tuesday the 14th. At the panel, all I am getting amp wise on any of the office circuits, is around .8A to 1A. This has been consistent using an Amprobe ACD 10 Pro clamp on, an Ideal 61-704 clamp-on/multimiter, and Fluke T51000 Open Jaw. In the one particular office, we would see a spike of up to almost 7A whenever the gal used her printer. Outside of that - nothing.
Will give an update once data is assessed. thanks

Have you hooked up a recording voltmeter. It doesn't take much over the PIV rating of a PN junction to fry a semiconductor. Also, do you happen to know the frequency response of the monitors your using? High frequency spikes can eat your lunch without being noticed, with slow responding instrumentation.

Finally does your TVSS have any indication it's still working? A simple device could be fried and won't give you a heads up.

Sounds like your on this like white on rice! Good luck.

 

[Besoeker]

I believe that the blue boxes represent loads, that the resistors are merely other non-specific loads in parallel with the blue boxes,

That's maybe where the confusion is.
If the "resistors" are non-specific loads you can't determine how the voltage would be divided across the two defined loads. Yet the PPT slides give specific values.
The only way to reconcile this apparent disparity is to take the resistor looking elements to be the center tapped supply transformer.
What otherwise does it contribute to the PPT presentation?

Yes, I probably should have let it go. That was my rationale a few posts back.
But I also have a conscience.
Particularly regarding safety.

 

[steelersman]

I'm not messing with anyone, sir. I have neither the need nor desire to do so.
The ground is clearly shown as not connecting to anything.
The neutral is shown connected to both loads.
The before and after:

The only difference shown is the disconnection of the ground. The neutral remains connected.
Under normal operation the ground should carry no current so disconnecting it won't affect voltage distribution.

It's important to note that Besoeker has altered this drawing by adding the "ground disconnected" and "neutral still connected" tidbits in there. So he has tried to make his opinion appear to be true by altering it when in fact he is STILL wrong and can't seem to admit it.

 

[steelersman]

I believe that the blue boxes represent loads, that the resistors are merely other non-specific loads in parallel with the blue boxes, and that the dot with the ground symbol represents the panel neutral bus.

Larry the blue boxes are just boxes to tell you the values of the 2 and there are only 2 loads or resistors or what have you. There are 3 blue boxes because the 3rd tells you the values of the 2 loads once they are in series. It can be argued that the blue lines should not be drawn to look as if they are connected to the circuit, they probably should have been bracketed instead. Closely follow the entire presentation from the beginning and it becomes more clear.

And I still cannot get your quote to be shaded like alot of others do. I wish I could figure that out.

 

[iwire]

And I still cannot get your quote to be shaded like alot of others do. I wish I could figure that out.

If you wanted to quote me the UBB code would look like this

[quote=iwire]The stuff you want to quote [/quote]