sheet rocker screws to hang service panel..o.k. not o.k.

[iwire]

Bob ,come down to Tampa and take a look at what is being built right now..

Sorry Jim your right, Frontline has no idea what they are taking about. The economy is strong now so it will always be strong. :roll:

But I won't waste my time as I knew you would not give a rats behind about the big picture.

You are definitely a 'I want it now for free' kind of guy. :lol:

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Bob ,come down to Tampa and take a look at what is being built right now..

Sorry Jim your right, Frontline has no idea what they are taking about. The economy is strong now so it will always be strong. :roll:

But I won't waste my time as I knew you would not give a rats behind about the big picture.

You are definitely a 'I want it now for free' kind of guy. :lol:

No Bob,what i am is realistic .One can not compete with others and stick with buying only american.Drywall hanger owner told me on thurdsaday that he fought hard not to hire the cheaper help from the south of border.While he very much wanted to keep his company american he soon seen the writing on the wall.Customers want a cheap price and to stay going he had no choice.Your free to buy only american products and avoid the big box stores.Hope you can compete this way.No this boom in building wont last forever but now is the time to cash in on it.

 

[LarryFine]

OK- so maybe I am being a little overly dramatic...............just a little

No, Willaim Shatner is just a little overly dramatic. :lol:

 

[iwire]

Your free to buy only American products and avoid the big box stores.Hope you can compete this way.

Cool because the company I work for buys nothing from the big box stores even when we do work that they might have the product for.

Jim you did not see the show and you obviously did not read much or any of the link I gave.

It goes much deeper than the simplistic view that you are expressing.

I am all for a free market, Walmarts model is not free market it is all about deep rooted and all encompassing control.

No doubt other large companies will follow Walmarts lead it is bad for all of us American workers.

As far as cashing in on your building boom what is the going rate for electricians in that area?

Are you cashing in or are the developers cashing in?

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

Bob,nobody is getting rich but there is as much OT that anyone could want.Any electrician could easily find a new job in less than 1 hour.Comany i am with is in need of helpers and electricians of any level.While we dont buy much from big orange we do use them for items we need fast or items supply stores dont carry

 

[allenwayne]

314.22(C) is referring to things like old work boxes.

...An enclosure mounted in a finished surface shall be...

314 applies to Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Manholes

For panels and meter sockets you need to look at 312.

312 doesn`t give a mounting requirement but 314.22 C does say an enclosure.Also 408.2 does say OTHER ARTICLES THAT APPLY
IMHO 314.22 C is there for the mounting of boxes ,enclosures,panels anything that is to be installed in a permanent manner.If it was alright to use any fastener then the reference in 314 wouldn`t be there.I have seen drywall screws used for boxes fixtures devices and curse the installer.I once saw 12 - 8 ft 2 lt. flour.strips 16 ft to the ceiling mounted with them.
Devices need the appropiate screw 6/32.Fixtures also need the appropiate screws or toggles.Drywall screws are a lazy mans answer to having to go get the correct fastener.After looking for a reference I want to say that I remember a time when there was a minimum size fastener listed.Could be that I am just getting old and senile.
One would think that if the code board has enough foresight to list a particular size fastener to mount a 6 lb or less fixture on a wall they would also have enough common sense to list a fastener to mount the heart of a system.Oh my bad that would just make sense :roll:

 

[allenwayne]

I posted before reading the remainder of the posts.Bob I have to give JIM & his acknowledgement.The work down here is out the ying yang.But on the other side of the token it is bare bottom dollars made.Material has gone through the roof even at the big O.What was bought not long ago for $23.00 a roll is now over $50.00.Gas has gone up Insurance too.All this does cut into the small profit margin that contractors make.Residential is a penny business.If the cost can`t be held in check then it operates at a loss.How long will that last?
My question is other than health care and construction and some retail sales there is no inferastructure here to support what is happening.
Jim is dead on I counted over 50 new subdivisions within a 50 sq. mile radius this weekend .One is Connerton in Land of Lakes where jim is near.That is over 8,000 homes and a mall,school,hospital and the planning board is looking at okaying a 15,000 home area not 30 miles north of there.
I have a few acres and got in at $1,750 @ but now the same raw land is $60,000 @ and that is less than 10 years ago.I remember the fall of construction in the 80`s and it was tough to survive.What does our future have in store?
I replaced my pool pump moter this saturday and all I could find was assembled in mexice motors.So the great american dream has been farmed out and we have been sold out right under our noses.
Where are the devices etc. you use from the USA I doubt it !!!!Maybe the company is american but the labor force that makes it isn`t.Look at fomoco 2 plants going to close but kia offers a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty.The plain truth is simple the AMERICAN dream has gone to sleep.It started with the steel mills that wouldn`t allow attrition and ended with thier demise then the ATC`s during the REGAN admin tried to buck and were fired now the major auto companies are floundering.DAMIER/CHRYSLER is a prime example.
I could go on and on but wont.The origin of this country is to be able to afford what we make and that is a dead issue.With familys spending over 1/2 the income on a mortgage.Sorry but my kids have not given up the silly habit of eating and I dont think they will anytime soon :twisted:
Well enough venting I,m going out on my boat till the morning.

 

[iwire]

312 doesn`t give a mounting requirement but 314.22 C does say an enclosure.Also 408.2 does say OTHER ARTICLES THAT APPLY
IMHO 314.22 C is there for the mounting of boxes ,enclosures,panels anything that is to be installed in a permanent manner.

Allan your mistaken, you must read the scope of 312 and 314.

314 does not in any way have to do with meter socket or overcurrent device enclosures.

 

[Jim W in Tampa]

I posted before reading the remainder of the posts.Bob I have to give JIM & his acknowledgement.The work down here is out the ying yang.But on the other side of the token it is bare bottom dollars made.Material has gone through the roof even at the big O.What was bought not long ago for $23.00 a roll is now over $50.00.Gas has gone up Insurance too.All this does cut into the small profit margin that contractors make.Residential is a penny business.If the cost can`t be held in check then it operates at a loss.How long will that last?
My question is other than health care and construction and some retail sales there is no inferastructure here to support what is happening.
Jim is dead on I counted over 50 new subdivisions within a 50 sq. mile radius this weekend .One is Connerton in Land of Lakes where jim is near.That is over 8,000 homes and a mall,school,hospital and the planning board is looking at okaying a 15,000 home area not 30 miles north of there.
I have a few acres and got in at $1,750 @ but now the same raw land is $60,000 @ and that is less than 10 years ago.I remember the fall of construction in the 80`s and it was tough to survive.What does our future have in store?
I replaced my pool pump moter this saturday and all I could find was assembled in mexice motors.So the great american dream has been farmed out and we have been sold out right under our noses.
Where are the devices etc. you use from the USA I doubt it !!!!Maybe the company is american but the labor force that makes it isn`t.Look at fomoco 2 plants going to close but kia offers a 10 year 100,000 mile warranty.The plain truth is simple the AMERICAN dream has gone to sleep.It started with the steel mills that wouldn`t allow attrition and ended with thier demise then the ATC`s during the REGAN admin tried to buck and were fired now the major auto companies are floundering.DAMIER/CHRYSLER is a prime example.
I could go on and on but wont.The origin of this country is to be able to afford what we make and that is a dead issue.With familys spending over 1/2 the income on a mortgage.Sorry but my kids have not given up the silly habit of eating and I dont think they will anytime soon :twisted:
Well enough venting I,m going out on my boat till the morning.

Allen,In 1 weeks time we seen 3 more startups on 54 east of 75 heading to zepherhills.I looked at my wife and said ,were they here last week ?Talking about serious earth moving equipment.Give them a month and houses will be standing.That new home depot was just in time.There are thousands of more acres to go.Unless intrest rate go up it will keep growing.But lets teach big orange a lesson and boycott them,LOL

 

[allenwayne]

312 doesn`t give a mounting requirement but 314.22 C does say an enclosure.Also 408.2 does say OTHER ARTICLES THAT APPLY
IMHO 314.22 C is there for the mounting of boxes ,enclosures,panels anything that is to be installed in a permanent manner.

Allan your mistaken, you must read the scope of 312 and 314.

314 does not in any way have to do with meter socket or overcurrent device enclosures.

Bob I respect your posts but will have to not concur on this one the scope of 314 does say boxes etc. but within it does say enclosures and how to mount them.If 312 had a provision as to how to mount a service panel or 408 for that fact then I would concur but all we have is 314 to go by for metal boxes,enclosures etc.I still say drywall screws are a lazy mans answer to getting the correct anchoring device.
Framers here have a list a mile long as to how many and what type of nail or red head is required in a wall in the event a hurricane might just happen to pass by.But the one thing that people rely on daily can be installed with a screw that has no tensile strength .But I guess that is because there have been roofs blown off but when they lifyed and were spewed over a few miles the OCPD has worked and nobody has cared that the service panel was snatched away fron the studs and nobody was injured.
Jim I know what you are saying I reel back as I watch what is happening to my little place in the boonies.But I am on a private road that we all maintain by ourselves and my wife has 1 acre planted and we raise pigs to slaughter and I just got an angus calf to slaughter.I paid a little over $6,000 when I bought and 1/2 mile away the same unimproved land is over $260,000.I have 2 girls and this place is for them but I am looking at buying a 40 somthing foot boat and get the hell out of dodge with in a couple of years when they are of age.The islands are calling and the sunshines so good.By the way Jim the grouper hole I have didn`t produce but my redfish/snook canal did let me know if you want to go relax on the gulf drink a beer relax and leave the NEC behind for the day

 

[iwire]

312 doesn`t give a mounting requirement but 314.22 C does say an enclosure.Also 408.2 does say OTHER ARTICLES THAT APPLY
IMHO 314.22 C is there for the mounting of boxes ,enclosures,panels anything that is to be installed in a permanent manner.

Allan your mistaken, you must read the scope of 312 and 314.

314 does not in any way have to do with meter socket or overcurrent device enclosures.

Bob I respect your posts but will have to not concur on this one the scope of 314 does say boxes etc. but within it does say enclosures and how to mount them.

No I will not agree to disagree on this one, you are still mistaken, although it is nice to see you are looking codes up.

312.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation and construction specifications of cabinets, cutout boxes, and meter socket enclosures.

A cabinet is what a panel is enclosed in.

408.18 Enclosure.
Panelboards shall be mounted in cabinets, cutout boxes, or enclosures designed for the purpose and shall be dead-front.

314.1 Scope.
This article covers the installation and use of all boxes and conduit bodies used as outlet, device, junction, or pull boxes, depending on their use, and manholes and other electric enclosures intended for personnel entry. Cast, sheet metal, nonmetallic, and other boxes such as FS, FD, and larger boxes are not classified as conduit bodies. This article also includes installation requirements for fittings used to join raceways and to connect raceways and cables to boxes and conduit bodies.

I have never seen a panelboard enclsure 'intended for personnel entry'

I say again 314.22(C) has absolutely nothing to do with meter sockets or panel cabinets.

 

[allenwayne]

Bob in the past i foresake looking up codes for the simple fact that I was a busy man.These days I have a new outlook and I appreciate the kudos for the acknowledgment.The NEC is vauge in all to many areas.We all know what is a safe and what isn`t a safe install.
I still say that if the NEC gave a definitive means of mounting a METAL ENCLOSURE/BOX then it would superseed this article but to just say that it doesn`t apply when there is no other definitive article that supports what you concure,well Bob I just have to agree to disagree

 

[dnem]

Our department fails all electrical equipment fastnened with drywall screws. We sight 110.2 with the explanation that drywall screws do not have the necessary head shear strength to hold any type of electrical box or device.

We accept any other type of screw or nail.

David

 

[tshea]

Our department fails all electrical equipment fastnened with drywall screws. We sight 110.2 with the explanation that drywall screws do not have the necessary head shear strength to hold any type of electrical box or device.

We accept any other type of screw or nail.

David

I just read 110.2. I can see your point... :roll: It clearly says no drywall screws because of head shear strength.

Please cite the engineering criteria for the head shear strength and what the minimum is per NEC.

Glad I'm not in your area. We would have words...a lot of them.

 

[dnem]

I just read 110.2. I can see your point... :roll: It clearly says no drywall screws because of head shear strength.

Please cite the engineering criteria for the head shear strength and what the minimum is per NEC.

Glad I'm not in your area. We would have words...a lot of them.

You sure like your drywall screws, don't you ?

I don't have the engineering criteria handy, but I'll bet somebody will end up posting something. We did a test years and years ago in school where we ran a line of different types of screws and nails into a board and left them sticking up about a half inch. They we tapped each one with a hammer on a 90 degree angle. The drywall screw head popped right off. As we increased the intensity of the blows, all of the screw and nails heads bent over at different amounts of force, but there were no others that broke off.

So is that acceptable "engineering criteria" ? :roll:

I've got a feeling that you might want something a little more official. :shock:

If I hit a day in the next few days where I get a smaller work load, I'll search the web for screw shear strength and see what testing has been done.

David

 

[allenwayne]

Just because the NEC doesn`t exactly have an article for mounting of a panel common scense should take hold.Standard drywall screws are garbage unless the threaded portion is doing the holding.For drywall,plywood they are #1 in my book but to hold a panel,box, etc.they have no tensile strength at all.I have used them in a pinch for devices that for one reason or another are set back but I try and keep a supply of 3 in machine screws on hand,as stated when used in a plastic box drywall screws destroy the thread area.So why not use the proper fastener for the proper application .314 does deal with this and it does state in other parts of the code so why doesn`t this transverse to panels and not just metal boxes.With that aren`t all service panels metal ??? and they are a box so I`ll stick with it applies even though Bob says no

 

[iwire]

.314 does deal with this and it does state in other parts of the code so why doesn`t this transverse to panels and not just metal boxes.With that aren`t all service panels metal ??? and they are a box so I`ll stick with it applies even though Bob says no

You bet Bob says no. :lol:

What about 314.22 C,clamps.anchors or fittings identified for the application.drywall screws are definetly identified for drywall :?: Would this apply in the case of a service panel :?:

I am sure Allan meant 314.23(C). :wink:

Here is 314.23(C).

ARTICLE 314 Outlet, Device, Pull, and Junction Boxes; Conduit Bodies; Fittings; and Manholes

314.23 Supports.
Enclosures within the scope of this article shall be supported in accordance with one or more of the provisions in 314.23(A) through (H).

(C) Mounting in Finished Surfaces. An enclosure mounted in a finished surface shall be rigidly secured thereto by clamps, anchors, or fittings identified for the application.

If you look at the scope of Article 314 as we are directed to do by 314.23 you can see that 314 does not apply to meter sockets or panel cabinets.

If you want the rules for those items you might want to go to ARTICLE 312 Cabinets, Cutout Boxes, and Meter Socket Enclosures.

 

[Mike03a3]

The black drywall screws have a coating that protects them against corrosion from the chemical composition of the drywall. As a byproduct, they are very brittle. Even a cursory google of the internet will bring up thousands of cautions against using them in applications requiring any real strength. As many have already said, they are especially poor in shear strength.

Personally, I use lots of square drive deck or framing screws, all of which are much stronger and intended to be run into wood over their entire length.

Having said that, the NEC has no standard for shear strength of panel mounting screws or any prohibition against drywall screws. As we have often seen to be the case, it leaves plenty of room for bad design and poor practices. Using drywall screws is just one of many examples.

 

[charlie b]

This topic is a bit over my head, and I'm not sure I know why there is an issue. But I am inclined to go with Bob on this one, even if he doesn't know how to spell your name. :wink:

 

[iwire]

You sure like your drywall screws, don't you ?

David I doubt that is the case at all.

I think the issue is none of us like out of control inspectors on a mission to save the world. :lol:

Strangely I have to agree an AHJ can refuse to 'approve' something.

However they better have a real reason or they could end up on the losing end.

The AHJ could refuse all GE panels because they 'don't like them'.

However they could also expect a letter from GE suggesting that decision is changed or expect a lawsuit.