shocking question..........

[aaatraker]

Any ideas, not sure how to answer this myself.

kurt


We have had some biggie floods around here and I have a question on behalf of even a few electricians who honestly dont know the answer (how being electricians they dont, i dunno)

ok, we got flood water... filled basements and first floors, service panels under water....
power still on, and when they pump the houses out often the lights are still on UNDER water.
I was chatting with an electrician who was telling me about how he was drying out a house, he yanked the meter, was downstairs cleaning the panel and the power guy came by and put the meter BACK.... to which he told him to yank it they were drying the panel out.

I ask em "why doesnt everyone get fried dead if the panels have power and they are under water? "
well that stumped him... he and his buddy had various electician talk on why maybe it was so but no explinations... his bud said he didnt know why, in that situation the transformers wernt exploding from all the short cuircuts.

another friend of mine is activly pumpling out basements and said it isnt at all unusual for the lights to be on under water, he doesnt know why no one is getting fried either...

toss a hair dryer in a tub, you get boiled.

submerge a live 200 amp service, and nothing happens, and the power remains flowing even under water.

why?

yes a lot of homes lose power, a lot of transformers have gone kerpowie... but whole towns here are submerged and A LOT of this power on/live panels/under water/ no electrocutions are being seen.

standing in a foot of water, cleaning a live panel when they put the meter back in he should have been cooked to death... he wasnt, the lights were on and no one can explain why.

I myself saw submerged lights on and people wading thru water not 25 feet away. there had to be a submerged HOT line nearby.

explinations???

ive seen news stories here of downed power lines and people getting killed stepping out of their cars on wet pavement.... so hot lines near water = dead meat but.. not always??

this is a real quizzer..

 

[hbiss]

Re: shocking question..........

Not a real puzzeler when you consider that water is not a real good conductor of electricity. Add impurities like salt then you will have a problem.

Still, I have a real problem with the way these guys are working. POWER SHOULD BE CUT by the POCO before anybody enters these areas or conducting any kind of remediation.

Anything else is just plain stupid!

I also have a problem with drying out panels. They need to be replaced.

-Hal

 

[electricman2]

Re: shocking question..........

In order to receive a shock, your body,(or part of it) has to be in the path of current flow. Standing in a pool of water which also has an operating light fixture submerged does not place you in the current path although it is not a good idea to do so. As Hal pointed out, water is a relatively poor coductor of electricity. In fact, absolutely pure water is an insulator! I too would have a problem with simply drying out electrical equipment for re-use.

[ October 09, 2004, 01:43 PM: Message edited by: electricman2 ]

 

[aaatraker]

Re: shocking question..........

I had thought of the water being to pure, but figured that ground water flooding into houses would have lots of minerals to serve as a conductor.

These electricians need to learn about lock out tag out, also a safety ground wire hooked up to a phase wire as we do in industry maintenance, as a backup in case someone does just what happened.

 

[charlie b]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by aaatraker: . . . also a safety ground wire hooked up to a phase wire as we do in industry maintenance, as a backup in case someone does just what happened.

Wouldn?t that cause the meter to explode in the hands of the POCO electrician? Surely there must be a better way!

 

[charlie b]

Re: shocking question..........

Take a look at my 6:17 pm post of 9/30 from this thread.

 

[aaatraker]

Re: shocking question..........

Yes the one putting the meter back in without checking why it was pulled out, without any regard for the other electrician, thinking that the water must have pulled the meter out of the socket? might get hurt. Yes locking out the main breaker or the main disconnect or having someone stand by for you at the meter socket with a 2x4 waiting for the stupid poco electrician to try and put the meter back in without check why its out. So in my eyes its comes down to who gets to go home to the family that night I would take every safety step I could to make sure I do.

 

[hurk27]

Re: shocking question..........

Putting a jumper across the phases is a law suit waiting to happen. :roll:

 

[hurk27]

Re: shocking question..........

aaatraker
The reason I said you should "lock out tag out" the meter, is in an industral set up a person would be protected from a arc flash if he re enerjized a safty switch or a breaker with the phases shorted.
But with a meter the POCO man would be exposed to the arc flash at a very high level, and to make it even worse is most POCO's only protect the line feeding the transformer. This is sometimes done with a fuse like a T15 which has a 150% trip rating. this means that the secondary conductors or the service equipment will not be protected and could even melt down and cause a fire with out ever blowing open the primary fuse. So this is why you should never do this on a service as you could end up paying for injury's to the POCO man, The house, or anyone in the house if they don't get out fast enough, even your self as you could be traped in a bad place that you couldn't excape fast enough.

"Just think before you do or it could cost you."

 

[iwire]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by aaatraker:
These electricians need to learn about lock out tag out, also a safety ground wire hooked up to a phase wire as we do in industry maintenance, as a backup in case someone does just what happened.

I have taken LOTO (Lock Out Tag Out) and they do not train you to ground out the conductors.

I guess that would be Lock Out, Tag Out, Ground Out. :roll:

In industry maintenance if you put a lock and tag on the supply there is no reason to ground out the phase conductors, in fact I would say that is a very bad idea.

To do this on a service is unthinkable.

Yes I agree the power company employee should check the socket for grounds and actually see if there is someone working inside before setting the meter.

However IMO you would be fully responsible if this power company employee gets injured because you intentionally short circuited the service.

There are other ways to make sure you go home at night other than putting others at risk.

When the meter was out I imagine there was a plastic shield put in its place on the socket. Put LOTO on the meter ring or enclosure so that the plastic shield could not be removed without seeing the lock and tag.

 

[charlie]

Re: shocking question..........

Yes I agree the power company employee should check the socket for grounds and actually see if there is someone working inside before setting the meter.

It depends on the training that is done in a particular company. In our Goldbook, section 102 of the text, unless it is a short time disconnect for non-pay, we have this requirement.

In all cases where a service has been disconnected, the main disconnect (circuit breaker or fuses) shall be in the open (off) position or the service will not be reconnected.

Our guys will then use a meter to check for shorts or ground faults before plugging the meter back into the meter fitting after verifying that the main is open.

 

[iwire]

Re: shocking question..........

Charlie I would say that anyone setting a meter in a hot socket has a major portion of their common sense missing if they do not check for shorts before they set the meter.

 

[charlie]

Re: shocking question..........

Bob, I agree. However, our disconnect guys will reconnect without checking if it is for non-pay. Their argument is that most of the time the bill is paid and they are back to reconnect within a day so it is safe. This is the way we have been doing it for the history of the company so it will not change until OSHA gets involved or someone gets hurt. Trust me, I have argued with their supervision.

 

[iwire]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by charlie:
Trust me, I have argued with their supervision.

 

[aaatraker]

Re: shocking question..........

OK, I'm the only one who would use personal protective grounding, I would if I thought it was necessary { which is used by utilities and industry on voltages over 600 volts and training is usually given by the utilities} and were not talking 600 volts.
So i did a internet search and could not find a lock/out made for meter sockets, there is not even a procedure in lock/out tag/out for removing a meter, that I could find.
So your left to improvise:
1- use a tag and hope that the same guy who would put the meter back without checking, will respect it and come find you and/or MacGyver a locking device that you would trust your life too.
2- have someone stand by the meter while you work{ hard for the one man shop, But worth the money to pay someone in this case}
3-put a 120v light or buzzer from phase wires to com, to let you know that the power has come back on, {this would be along with you wearing rubber gloves and boots if your standing in water}.

kurt

[ October 10, 2004, 11:47 AM: Message edited by: aaatraker ]

 

[jimwalker]

Re: shocking question..........

Years ago in Naples FL. a lesson was learned.The poco installed a meter on a house that was just rerented.Customer paid deposit and they came out and installed meter.It had a load but was ignored.Short time later fire department arrived.What had happened was the old tenant must have left a burner on but since no electric as it was turned off there was no problem.New tenant moving in had placed a box on top of range.You can figure out the rest.That prompted them to change policy on installing meters.If it has a load then they don't install.Customers are told to turn main off.
This same rule would have worked with the water problem.At least it would have protected the electrician unless the main was under water.
Can panels be cleaned ?just what can we use that would not void warranty?

 

[pierre]

Re: shocking question..........

It seems to me that in todays frantic market to find and build homes where they never should be built, that more and more homes and businesses are constructed where flooding occurs. With that said, there are more 'electricians' subject to repair of and maintenance of flooded equipment - from receptacles to large switchboards and gear.

NEMA has documentation that is free to download. The information is for treating water damaged equipment, and is very informative.

As far as "electricians" working live on this equipment while it is still submersed in water - those people are not electricians, but installers, workers - anything but BONAFIDED electricians.
To be an electrician requires PROPER training and ELECTRICIANS with PROPER training will not work on live equipment that is still submerged.

What to do? Do not permit installers, workers or whatever we call these people to work under these conditions!!! Simple.... right?

Pierre

 

[iwire]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by aaatraker:
So i did a internet search and could not find a lock/out made for meter sockets, there is not even a procedure in lock/out tag/out for removing a meter, that I could find.

It is easy.

If it is the type of socket that uses a ring their is a spot for a lock on the ring.

I happen to have the plastic shield, but the power company should be installing the shield when they pull the meter.

All you need to do is add the lock and tag.

Bob

 

[aaatraker]

Re: shocking question..........

The electrician "yanked the meter himself" was how the post stated it. So no utility shield. This is not that uncommon? Where can you buy the shield?

Kurt

 

[aaatraker]

Re: shocking question..........

This has been interesting, but has drifted off the first post that I submitted. I'm as guilty as any.

Read the first post.
Are there anymore ideas on what this person was asking ? Why was the power staying on under water? And why weren't people getting hurt?

We seem to have lost the thread after the third or forth post.

Kurt