shocking question..........

[izak]

Re: shocking question..........

i know this has little to do with the original thread, but i was taught, by a wireman who has don mainly industrial work in power plants for over 20 years, that a grounding jumper is a VERY good way to guarantee that YOU dont get electrocuted by someone else's stupidity. ive never thought about doing it on a service, but working on branch circuits or feeders, on a larger job where there were other electricians whose experience/intelligence was questionable, i have used it ALOT...
it makes me feel alot safer

 

[iwire]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by izak:
i was taught, by a wireman who has don mainly industrial work in power plants for over 20 years, that a grounding jumper is a VERY good way to guarantee that YOU dont get electrocuted by someone else's stupidity.

It sure would be nice to see this advice coming from OSHA or any safety organization.

I have little faith in the "That is how the old timers do it" advice.

Also there is a large difference between working on circuits less than 600 volts and working on circuits higher than 600 volts.

Just who's stupidity is it if you are working on conductors that have not been locked out? :roll:

 

[aaatraker]

Re: shocking question..........

It is addressed in the osha standards under power station, substations, etc. over 600 volts. As protection aganist backfeeds, and the bypassing of lock out tag out by others.

This does not mean its not a good safety at lower voltages, 120, 208, and 480 can kill you just as dead. There's just more of you to cleanup at the lower voltages, at the higher its just ash.

There's nothing wrong with information from old timers, there experience and knowledge is what allowed them to reach old timer status.DAMN, I JUST REALIZED, I'M A OLD TIMER, BEEN IN INDUSTRY OVER TWENTY YEARS, THATS WHATS WRONG WITH MY IDEAS.

This is my last comment on this thread, thanks to all who gave the info on the water and electricity,
which was the point of my post. As to the other discussion, I think its what you yourself feel is safe, and gets you home at night.
Thanks again
kurt

[ October 11, 2004, 02:22 PM: Message edited by: aaatraker ]

 

[charlie b]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by aaatraker: Are there anymore ideas on what this person was asking ? Why was the power staying on under water? And why weren't people getting hurt?

You are right, we have digressed. But in the first 5 replies, hbliss, electricman2, and I posted the answer: Water is a poor conductor. To that I will add that water is not always a poor conductor, and nobody should rely on its insulation properties as the sole protection against shock.

Current that enters a flooded sub-panel from the main (via the hot leg of the feeder) will start at the bus bar, go through the impure water to the neutral bar, and return to the source via the neutral leg of the feeder. A person standing some distance away will not be part of that current path. The person will likely be part of a different current path. But the current will be much smaller. That is because the direct path (i.e., a few inches of water connecting the hot bar to the neutral bar) will have far less resistance than any path that includes many feet of water, a person?s body, and quite possibly planet Earth.

 

[izak]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by iwire:

Originally posted by izak:
i was taught, by a wireman who has don mainly industrial work in power plants for over 20 years, that a grounding jumper is a VERY good way to guarantee that YOU dont get electrocuted by someone else's stupidity.

It sure would be nice to see this advice coming from OSHA or any safety organization.

I have little faith in the "That is how the old timers do it" advice.

Also there is a large difference between working on circuits less than 600 volts and working on circuits higher than 600 volts.

Just who's stupidity is it if you are working on conductors that have not been locked out? :roll:

I dont mean to be disrespectful, sir, but one thing that i have learned, doing electrical work in arkansas, especially commercial work and sometimes industrial work IS THIS:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LOCK OUT / TAG OUT
OSHA STANDARDS DO NOT MEAN A THING
and if you dont like it then GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
where it will be just the same

I dont like it, have had a hard time adjusting to it, and take what precautions i feel I must to make the best of a TERRIBLE situation....

 

[iwire]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by izak:
I dont mean to be disrespectful, sir, but one thing that i have learned, doing electrical work in arkansas, especially commercial work and sometimes industrial work IS THIS:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LOCK OUT / TAG OUT
OSHA STANDARDS DO NOT MEAN A THING
and if you dont like it then GO SOMEWHERE ELSE
where it will be just the same

I dont like it, have had a hard time adjusting to it, and take what precautions i feel I must to make the best of a TERRIBLE situation....

Your not being disrespectful and my name is Bob.

When I said:

I have little faith in the "That is how the old timers do it" advice.

I said it because many times the source of misinformation comes from very well intentioned people that "have always done it that way" and they truly believe that they are doing it the right way.

The best way to learn the current rules or codes is from the current edition.

I am sorry you feel you have no recourse but to ground out wiring and put others in harms way just because you do not choose to carry a simple pad lock on in your tool box. Yes it should be provided for you but if as you say:

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS LOCK OUT / TAG OUT
OSHA STANDARDS DO NOT MEAN A THING

Take responsibility for yourself get a lock and a few other items and you can be safe without setting others up for a an arc flash.

 

[izak]

Re: shocking question..........



i do have a padlock, and a lock/tag
but its pretty hard to lock out a lighting panel board that doesnt even have a dead front on it

sometimes the jobs im on go months with energized panels, no covers, no deadfronts, people walking around them ALL the time.. and i dont mean 'qualified personnel' either...


I agree with you 100 percent, Bob.
i just wish that the people i work with, and work For, would see it that way...


besides... how would intentionally grounding phase conductors do anything BUT trip an ovecurrent device?
im not talking about service conductors either...

 

[jimwalker]

Re: shocking question..........

If need be then remove the wires from the breaker and cap them off.Do something to save yourself from just anyone turning on the breaker

 

[izak]

Re: shocking question..........

what is the danger of creating a Line to Ground Fault on a 120/240 120/208 277/480 volt system when the only thing that will happen when the breaker is turned on is that it will TRIP?
this is no different than an accidental short to ground in the system in which the overcurrent protection DOES ITS JOB

how am i subjecting anyone to the possibility of Arc-Flash?

 

[jimwalker]

Re: shocking question..........

That breaker just might blow up in your partners face.Or not trip---then what?

[ October 17, 2004, 03:45 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]

 

[templdl]

Re: shocking question..........

You really don't want to intentionally close anything into a bolted fault. If you did it most likely would clear the fault but then again there is an outside chance that that??device may have a catastrophic failure when it attempts to clear the fault.
Not a good practice.
If a breaker trips magnetically (instantaneously) it is important that the source of the trip be identified and resolved before an attempt is made to reeset, latch and re close the OCPD.

 

[apauling]

Re: shocking question..........

it is really an odd sight to see lights on underwater during floods, but it happens.

I was on a job once where the gc thought he knew everything. i was working moving old wiring in a bath with a 220 heater. The gc swore he would not touch the panel while i was rewiring the heater. Some little angel told me to wire nut the two # 10s. An hour later he was still accusing me of ruining the breaker, that he kept repeatedly trying to turn on. He wouldn't even admit that he had been putting me at risk by not considering that others may be working with the wiring.

It was a slow time but I was glad to be done with this ah. I would have suffered little guilt if the breaker had blown up.

paul

 

[jimwalker]

Re: shocking question..........

ooops my klines slipt outa my hands,sorry about your mouth

 

[rong111]

Re: shocking question..........

in my state all meters have a ring. it is required by all poco's here that meters are tagged with a hook lock. of course that hook is easily snipped, but hopefully not. furthermore any hot sockets that do not contain a meter must have the plastic "dummy" in place. per the poco.
of course this is not always done. electrical workers are not allowed to pull meters without express permission from the poco. the poco owns the meter.

to the original question. not only is pure water a good insulater but a large body of water has a much harder time "seeing" a path to ground. go swim out 300 feet in lake michigan and have someone throw in a hairdryer at shore. you will not be shocked. however, like everyone else stated someone working in a flooded basement with live service present is either not an electrician or is some sort of idiot!

ron g.

 

[physis]

Re: shocking question..........

As far as elctriciains doing battle with each other on the front lines of field work?

To address the original post.

If you wonder why a lamp works under water it's probably easier to ask why it wouldn't.

for being submerged in electrified water, here's a little story from my childhood.

My grandfather had a houseboat where the family spent many weekends. While swimming near one of the boats on the marina there was a definate sensation of electric current. At distances around 20 feet it was significantly noticeable. Closer it became increasingly more intence. I never learned the exact point of the source but I did learn that I didn't want to be closer than what guess would be ten feet.

So that might provide some insight to the difference between a basement and a bathtub. Three inches is deadly.

And for people being electrocuted by downed power lines. If those lines are primary lines the voltage would be in the thousands rather than the hundreds.

 

[wirenut1980]

Re: shocking question..........

Kind of reminds me of an emf. It is stronger near the source, but as you get further away, it weakens. whoops this is isn't the power quality forum!

[ November 19, 2004, 02:33 PM: Message edited by: wirenut1980 ]

 

[physis]

Re: shocking question..........

You don't know how hard it is to resist the temptation to whup out the calculator.

 

[rattus]

Re: shocking question..........

Here is my take on this phenomenon: To answer the original question, a submerged breaker box should be completely enclosed by the grounded case. Inside the case there will be currents between the exposed hot buses and the case and between each other, and these currents might be enough to boil water, but little of this current would extend outside the box if the panel door is closed. If it is open, then a bit more current would flow into the surrounding water.

Now if the front panel is removed or left off as I have seen some maintenance men do, then a considerable current would flow into the surrounding water and perhaps through some unlucky electrician's body.

In any case, I would be very wary because it only takes a milliAmp or so to kill.

 

[harvey828]

Re: shocking question..........

Originally posted by aaatraker:
OK, I'm the only one who would use personal protective grounding, I would if I thought it was necessary { which is used by utilities and industry on voltages over 600 volts and training is usually given by the utilities} and were not talking 600 volts.
So i did a internet search and could not find a lock/out made for meter sockets, there is not even a procedure in lock/out tag/out for removing a meter, that I could find.
So your left to improvise:
1- use a tag and hope that the same guy who would put the meter back without checking, will respect it and come find you and/or MacGyver a locking device that you would trust your life too.
2- have someone stand by the meter while you work{ hard for the one man shop, But worth the money to pay someone in this case}
3-put a 120v light or buzzer from phase wires to com, to let you know that the power has come back on, {this would be along with you wearing rubber gloves and boots if your standing in water}.

kurt

Why not place a lock on the sealing tab located at the bottom of the meter enclosure (once meter has been removed and cover put back into place)? Every power company I have had dealings with will place a seal on this tab to ensure that the meter has not been removed for tampering while in service.

 

[apauling]

Re: shocking question..........

someone does make real locks for meters. our poco uses them in areas or on houses where owner/renters are unafraid to pull meter and remove insulating tabs, or have jumped meters, etc. a company in LA sells key sets for these lockouts for anyonewho does emergency work. so contact your poco??