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Sick and tired of constant code changing year after year

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zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
My point is there might be some MIDI in there somewhere but more likely there's a purpose-build pipe organ system doing the work. MIDI is a serial line protocol and only gets 3K bytes/second (althought there are MIDI over ethernet adapters). IIRC a note messages takes three bytes (for on or for off).
 
Z

zbang

Senior Member
Location
Roughly 5346 miles from Earls Court
Hmm, AFAIK, the fastest paper tape readers could hit 500 characters/second, which is really whipping along. The fastest 80-column card reader got about 1000/second (80k characters or 1200 total bits). But then, at one time 4800bps modems needed a 4-wire conditioned line.
 
A

ASG

Senior Member
Location
Work in NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
I do think some changes have gone more into design than actual protection. Requiring a certain number of receptacles for conference rooms based on wall length, for example.

Another example, which I've seen Mike Holt himself respond to, is AFCI technology and how effective it is in actually doing what the Code intent is for why it is required.

Now the IECC is requiring controlled receptacles to make itself in step with the ASHRAE energy code but I do question how much energy, if any, it saves and especially how useful it is compared to the cost of adding this to design (similar to the extra AFCI cost).

/rant
 
brantmacga

brantmacga

Señor Member
Location
Georgia
Occupation
Former Child
danmark2002 said:
In California only 40% can pass the journeyman's test the first time and about 20% the second time
That means that 40% of all the young people starting their training never get to be a licensed electrician.
Click to expand...

In my experience the test was less about how much knowledge you retain, but a measurement of your ability to find information when needed. I remember the basics of the stuff I deal with daily, but several times a week I'm in a code book finding an answer for myself or one of the guys that works with me. I feel like sitting for the test with that in mind makes it somewhat less stressful, and easier to study for.


danmark2002 said:
Finally and last I do not understand why all states does NOT accept an out of state license. In around year 2005 when Iowa first came out with a mandatory state license they only accepted an Iowa license if you wanted to do electrical work in Iowa. Now they have accepted licenses from about 6 neighboring states.

I think it is time we explain to the politicians, that by the way has no electrical experience, that all out of state licenses should be recognized by other states. After all we all have to use the code book.
Click to expand...

I agree with this one. It would be awesome if we had one standardized test, and from there you would just need to register with each state and provide whatever financials they want if necessary. What's really a PITA is you have some states that will reciprocate, but then require you to take CEU's within their state borders. No online allowed.... you gotta drive up there and take a class. I fully get local amendments etc. but I see no reason you can't do that online.
 
C

Canton

Senior Member
Location
Virginia
Occupation
Electrician
danmark2002 said:
I have been studying the NEC since year 2005. I think it has come to the point where the code is micro managing every little detail there is.
Sad part of it all is that most electrician never get to use it much themself. Most work has already been designed by an engineer or architect.

Several states has lowered the passing grade from 75% to 70% for journeyman's electrician simply because not enough apprentices can pass the exam.

For electrical contractor in California the passing grade required is only 65% and the test is so easy it is actually a joke ( I took the test myself ).
If you can wire a house you can pass the test. There is no requirement of any formal training. The only thing required is that you can document 4 years of doing electrical work. Most electrical contractor there are less trained and rarely knows more about being an electrician than a second year apprentice does.

In California only 40% can pass the journeyman's test the first time and about 20% the second time
That means that 40% of all the young people starting their training never get to be a licensed electrician.

Right now I am studying for the master electrician test here in Iowa. The test is based on the NEC year 2020.
When I am done taking the test I can throw that code book away and buy the NEC code book for year 2022 since all the work I have to do after that
has to be done to the 2022 NEC.

Finally and last I do not understand why all states does NOT accept an out of state license. In around year 2005 when Iowa first came out with a mandatory state license they only accepted an Iowa license if you wanted to do electrical work in Iowa. Now they have accepted licenses from about 6 neighboring states.
I think it is time we explain to the politicians, that by the way has no electrical experience, that all out of state licenses should be recognized by other states. After all we all have to use the code book.
Click to expand...
Wrong

I’m licensed in multiple states, all with different requirements to become licensed.
Some states the prerequisites for becoming licensed are 4 years residential work and breathing, others are 8 years and must have Residential, commercial and industrial background in your work history. Every state is different.

I agree, there are to many unqualified contractors/individuals out there due to weak licensing requirements, and it would be nice to have one license for the whole country. But certified don’t make you qualified…..but in the eyes of the law it does, in the state that licensed you.
 
G

garbo

Senior Member
Retired after 50 enjoyable years as a sparky. Yes back in the 1970's was told the NEC only had about 250,000 words and was easier. Probably double that in the 2023 NEC. Frustrating that even with maybe a halve millon words the NEC still does not cover everything. I would strongly recommend that you join & participate in local organizations such as the IAEI, independent electrical contractors or others. I paid my own way to my local 8 yearly IAEI meetings and learned things at each & every meeting. Found the vast majority of AHJ , L & I electrical units and inspectors open to answering your questions. Know for sure that inspectors would rather answer your questions so you can pass an inspection on first visit. Even though I'm retired I still look at the most visited electrical site in the world namely very talented Mike Holt for 7 days a week daily free graphic & code question along with Charlie Trouts great vide question if the day thru NICCA. Please don't give up , keep up with all the codes , work safe, maintain your life line = PPE & always use LOTTO.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
Canton said:
Wrong

I’m licensed in multiple states, all with different requirements to become licensed.
Some states the prerequisites for becoming licensed are 4 years residential work and breathing, others are 8 years and must have Residential, commercial and industrial background in your work history. Every state is different.

I agree, there are to many unqualified contractors/individuals out there due to weak licensing requirements, and it would be nice to have one license for the whole country. But certified don’t make you qualified…..but in the eyes of the law it does, in the state that licensed you.
Click to expand...
That is it. Not all jurisdictions have the same qualification requirements, some have different local rules, most use NEC as a base code but some either amend it in places, or like California where they have their own code but is mostly NEC based and not all jurisdictions are on same edition either. Permittting and inspections procedures vary from jurisdiction to jurisdiction as well, and some of the content of testing usually involves rules of the jurisdiction you are testing for.

Reciprocation usually happens between jurisdictions that have similar rules and such. They still will generally want their separate application and license fee though, even though you passed a test in a different jurisdiction. This is common for journeymen and other lower level licenses, contactor license holders often still need to pass a test in the other jurisdictions before they will be issued a contractor license, but with their current contractor license from somewhere else may not need to first obtain a journeyman license and wait however long necessary to qualify to get a contractor license, that "application experience" is typically recognized.
 
hbiss

hbiss

EC, Westchester, New York NEC: 2014
Location
Hawthorne, New York NEC: 2014
Occupation
EC
ASG said:
Another example, which I've seen Mike Holt himself respond to, is AFCI technology and how effective it is in actually doing what the Code intent is for why it is required.
Click to expand...

Must have missed that. As far as I know Mike has the same opinion as we do about AFCIs, but as a trainer he's probably more reserved about expressing it.

-Hal
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
hbiss said:
I don't think so. As a leading authority on the NEC, he can't very well disagree with it.

-Hal
Click to expand...
If he were in the field dealing with all the nonsense that goes with the AFCI territory he might be more skeptical of them, especially if it were costing him $$ at times.

I am not against finding ways to make things safer, but not the way this particular item has been done. The big corporations that created them still find a way to protect their earnings over all this. Even though we haven't perfected it yet, lets get this pushed into codes so it becomes law in most places and that helps our bottom line and recovery on what R&D we have already invested, in meantime end user expects perfection from the product. We will offer as limited support as possible and let the middle man be the one that loses the most money on this thing that still needs improvements because he is forced to do so. They can come out with new improved replacements and even offer them for no cost, that installer still doesn't get reimbursed in any way for doing all their dirty work.
 
A

ASG

Senior Member
Location
Work in NYC
Occupation
Electrical Engineer, PE
The last thing I remember seeing so long ago:

404 Error - Page Not Found

Ready to take an electrical exam? For over 40 years we have been designing electrical exam preparation products that work. Choose one of our best-selling products and get the skills, the knowledge and the confidence you need to pass your exam.
www.mikeholt.com
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Occupation
EC
ASG said:
The last thing I remember seeing so long ago:

404 Error - Page Not Found

Ready to take an electrical exam? For over 40 years we have been designing electrical exam preparation products that work. Choose one of our best-selling products and get the skills, the knowledge and the confidence you need to pass your exam.
www.mikeholt.com
Click to expand...
Article says prevents "most fires that occur in electrical wiring". Not certain I agree with that. Have no data to support it but I would guess there are more fires started by "glowing connections" than by arcing. AFCI's do nothing to stop glowing connections as it is seen no different to the device than a resistive load.
 
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