side stepping arc fault breakers

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Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

In my area, there is local ordinance the directs me to install line powered, battery backup smokes on circuits with other things. That is, the smokes can't be on a dedicated circuit.

If I use this 10 Amp circuit to also feed a couple luminaires in the immediate vacinity of the smoke boxes, say the hall light, some stair lights or basement lights, then I have satisfied that intent of my local ordinance. I have made it inconvenient for the occupant to simply switch off the breaker that controls the smokes. I'm also not adding receptacles, which, IMO, would lead to other issues.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

If you install a 10 amp breaker then how would you be able to use table 210.21(B)(3)? It doesnt list 10 amp breakers. So how do I know what rating receptacle I can place on that 10 amp breaker?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Gentlemen,I'm going to step way on out here and ask this question.Now I've been looking around in the book.In light of this thread,what is to stop me from installing a dedicated receptacle ,on a single branch circuit,protected @ 10 amps,dedicated for a "computer outlet" in a bedroom.Labeled in the panel as same,for the computer,and not exceeding 8 amperes for cord and plug(taking all of 210.21 in consideration).Can I bypass the requirements of 210.12..Help me out,because I'm still looking..
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

406.2 Receptacle Rating and Type.

(B) Rating. Receptacles and cord connectors shall be rated not less than (My emphasis - Al) 15 amperes, 125 volts, or 15 amperes, 250 volts, and shall be of a type not suitable for use as lampholders.

--and--

(F) Noninterchangeable Types. Receptacles connected to circuits that have different voltages, frequencies, or types of current (ac or dc) (My emphasis - Al) on the same premises shall be of such design that the attachment plugs used on these circuits are not interchangeable.
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[ January 22, 2005, 01:35 PM: Message edited by: al hildenbrand ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

yeh jim ,It really is..But the reason this stuck out in my mind.A "EC" and I just had this conversation Wednesday of this week.She said a few homeowners had been calling her,complaining about AFC protected outlets in the bedroom.Where they had there "computers" plugged up,was tripping the AFCI breakers.She was telling them Via phone conversation,nothing she could do for them.Personally didn't take the calls,it was conversation between her,and I..
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Sounds like she won't be around long with that attitude.Must be a problem somewhere if a computer rejects the afci.She must make them work for 1 year.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I see no problem with using a 10 ampere circuit breaker on the bedroom circuit. Just be sure to protect it and the rest of the circuit with a 15 or 20 ampere AFCI. :D
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Ten amp circuits are not specifically mentioned that I know of.
210.23 says, ( In no case shall the load exceed the branch circuit ampere rating.)
210.24 is restricting putting receptacle devices with ratings larger than the branch circuit overcurrent device.
In my opinion you can install a 10 amp overcurrent devise, you just can't install 15 amp receptacles on it
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I missed this thread but I was having a great time reading it when I decided someone should post 210.12(B) and I saw it "15- and 20-ampere outlets".

That's my old buddies at CMP 2 at the helm again! :D :D :D Three grins!
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

What were they thinking? You might need an arc welder or an industrial popcorn popper in your bedroom and the AFI might not work well with those. :D :D
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by russ:

210.24 is restricting putting receptacle devices with ratings larger than the branch circuit overcurrent device.
In my opinion you can install a 10 amp overcurrent devise, you just can't install 15 amp receptacles on it
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------>Russ, I agree w/ you. And this does address the original posting,of a 10 ampere overcurrent device,protecting -[ "two or more outlets or receptacles" ]-- in the dwelling bedrooms,thus closing the "loop-hole" of AFCI protection,in that given application..(good-eye,Mr.Russ & Mr. Physis)--Still in need of help closing senario,in my posting as far as a safety issue..with explanation..any help?

[ January 23, 2005, 11:01 AM: Message edited by: dillon3c ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I'm going to go out on a limb here. Hey quit jumping around!

Anyway, the computer is probably hooked up to a surge protector, which is plugged into the AFCI circuit. Power strips (I've heard, never experienced) have a high incidence of AFCI nuisance tripping. Put a TVSS at the panel or service, put a regular splitter or cut in a three gang. Nuisance trip gone.

But I am by no means a power quality guy, so I am ready to be very dutifully blasted for this. :D
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by physis:
I missed this thread but I was having a great time reading it when I decided someone should post 210.12(B) and I saw it "15- and 20-ampere outlets".

That's my old buddies at CMP 2 at the helm again! :)
Click to expand...
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

The 10A breakers I have seen is for control use only. They look like standard breakers but I don't know how they mount. I have never pulled one out of the control cabnit. Can't beleive someone would use one on a branch circuit. Amazing.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Necbuff,
Originally posted by necbuff:
The 10A breakers I have seen is for control use only. They look like standard breakers but I don't know how they mount. I have never pulled one out of the control cabnit. Can't beleive someone would use one on a branch circuit. Amazing.
Click to expand...
did you look it up in the SQ D catalog as mentioned earlier? These are standard (not control or special) breakers.

Roger
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Part of the original post stated:
I've caught wind of some electricians installing 10amp breakers on the circuits feeding dwelling unit bedrooms in place of arcfaults and the ahj allowing it.
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The replies seem to be debating whether or not a 10a breaker can be used. I believe they could be because they now carry a UL489 listing and NEC1003 atr 240.6 allows it "The use of fuses and inverse time circuit breakers with nonstandard ampere ratings shall be permitted ."
The real issue is their use as a substitute for an AFCI breaker. My previous post states why they won't provide arc fault protection any better than the common 15, 20, or even 30a breaker.
I trust that they are packaging and installing smoke detectors with them.
Dave
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I think the issue is supplying a 15 amp receptacle with a 10 amp branch circuit. Unless I missed something.
 
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