side stepping arc fault breakers

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Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

romex jockey,
quote:
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210.14(J)(1)
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I can't find this in my 2002.
Click to expand...
It's from the '05 Al, a few changes, but it still looks like one could wire all the general receptacles on one circuit in a dwelling

not that i would, but if we are talking loopholes that seems to be one...
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by romex jockey:
romex jockey,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
210.14(J)(1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't find this in my 2002.
Click to expand...
It's from the '05 Al, a few changes, but it still looks like one could wire all the general receptacles on one circuit in a dwelling

not that i would, but if we are talking loopholes that seems to be one...
Click to expand...
------------------->My 2005 NEC:from article 210.12 to 210.18...doesn't have article 210.14 between the two..
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

George, I ordered this book very early,recieved on 10/20/04..(grin'in)..And It is not present in my copy..Mine goes from 210.12(a)-(b),then a footpage note,an Exception,then (a)The arc-fault circuit interrupter installed within 1.8m (6).. and then (b)the circuit conductors between the branch....Straight to Article 210.18...
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I strongly suspect that romex jockey is pushing our collective leg. :(
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Wowser,this sure is a lot of time and effort spent to keep from using AFCI breakers. :roll:

Are THAT many folks having problems with them? We've used em' since '99,and only had one problem,and that turned out to be a staple driven too tight.

Russell
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Wowsers :D

I don't think anybody here is trying to get away with it. Just debating whether or not there's a loop hole.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Loop hole in using a 10a rated breaker instead of a 15a rated breaker when used with #14 rated wire and devices for example or 10a breaker as a substitute for an AFCI?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Jap,

I'm convinced you can't get away with it.

Now we can either start all over again or maybe start adding up yes'es and no's.

russellroberts,

I love cartoons, and that ones my favorite inspector: Gadget :D
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Just can't see were in the book it allows a 10 amp circuit to supply a 15 or a 20 amp receptacle outlet.

210.21 Outlet Devices.
Outlet devices shall have an ampere rating that is not less than the load to be served and shall comply with 210.21(A) and (B).

(B) Receptacles.
(3) Receptacle Ratings. Where connected to a branch circuit supplying two or more receptacles or outlets, receptacle ratings shall conform to the values listed in Table 210.21(B)(3), or where larger than 50 amperes, the receptacle rating shall not be less than the branch-circuit rating.


Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits
Circuit Rating Receptacle Rating

15 Not over 15
20 15 or 20
30 30?
40 40?or 50
50? 50?

Nope, still don't see were a 10 amp circuit rating is listed.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Volt102,
Nope, still don't see were a 10 amp circuit rating is listed.
Click to expand...
not that I care, but where does it say it must be listed?

Article 240 recognizes "Nonstandard" sizes of OCPD's. ;)

Roger
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Roger, I pointed that out a couple of screens ago stating that I believe 10a breakers could be used as the now carry a UL489 listing and NEC2002 art. 240.6 includes the statement "The use of fuses and inverse time circuit breakers with nonstandard ampere ratings shall be permitted ." From that I would conclude that a 10a breaker is allowed.
That said, then the argument is whether #14 rated wire and the associated devices would allow a 10a breaker to be applied.
If a 10a breaker can't be applied with #14 rated wire then a 15a breaker can't be applied with #12 rated wire given that there have been no wire derating issues unless the ratings of the devices are a factor.
Other that applying a 10a breaker breaker?in the manor which they are doing is just plain dumb I can't see why it's disallowed other that it is no substitute in any way, shape, or form for an AFCI.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I've looked, and not found what I was looking for. Is there anywhere in the code where it states what determines the rating of a circuit? I assume an OCPD determines the rating.

I'm an idiot. I hadn't skimmed the thread in a while, I thought the words in 210.3 were the words of the mystery 210.14 that didn't exist.

By 210.3, I'd say that the 10a loophole is a sadly valid one.

[ January 26, 2005, 07:37 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

good morning mr. stolz, Seen the first post,was looking at it before it changed.I see we are both wakeing up with a cup of coffee in our hands sir..(grin'in)..And no sir, wasn't going to paste post 61 on ya.Know u to be sharper...Again, good morning,and have a good day sir.. ;)
 
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