side stepping arc fault breakers

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Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Just for the record, I have NOT have my cup of coffee yet this mourning.

240.6 does recognize the use of nonstandard ampere ratings. The article states that they are permitted. The start of the article states that they shall be considered as 15,20,25,30 etc..
No 10 is in the list (unless fuses)

Just because it is permitted, it doesn't waive the code articles' requirements does it?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by volt101:
Just for the record, I have NOT have my cup of coffee yet this mourning.
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And good morning to u too mr. volt sir.Hope their serving more than "warm water & soda crackers" at the inspection office.Have a good day also sir..
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Why resort to 10 amp breaker? Is the reason cost or having problems? Cannot be cost since everyone on same page. Must be initial installation trip (wiring errors) or nuisance trip after home owner has moved in.
If a surge strip is anywhere on an AFCI branch circuit certain conditions exist which will trip an AFCI. First the MOV acts as a variable resistor and shunts current to ground on a overvoltage. The MOVs have a life span depending on how many overvoltages happen and can be leaking current. Utilities can have switching capacitors, bad transformers, bad connections, bad network protectors causing voltage spikes. Naturally lightning strikes or a vacuum sweeper on the AFCI circuit with surge strips can cause a trip. Some parts of the country have poor power quality and is invisible to the majority of home owners and electricians. The 30 ma Ground Fault type detection is an important part of AFCI for this insures the electrician and inspector correct wiring and mechanical soundness. I suggest whole house surge protection this would solve the problem
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I'm surprised this thread has lasted as long as it has. I don't see any loophole for this 10 amp breaker.

The code says that "all branch circuits that supply....15 and 20 ampere outlets" in bedrooms need AFCI protection.

It doesn't say "all 15 and 20 ampere branch circuits."

All branch circuits supplying bedroom receptacle "outlets" ( ;) ) need AFCI protection. End of story.

A 10 amp breaker does not provide AFCI protection. It is wrong.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Peter,
all branch circuits that supply....15 and 20 ampere outlets
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The problem with that is that "outlets" do not have voltage and current ratings.
Don
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I'm pretty sure you can't but I can't find anything prohibiting a 15 amp receptacle on 10 amp circuit. Is it posted in here already or is it in the book?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Peter D.,

This is the frustrating thing about the language. . .if I install a through-the wall AC unit, cord & plug connected, and it requires a 15 Amp 250 Volt receptacle, even if this is in the Bedroom, no AFCI is required by 210.12(B).

So, per 210.12(B), only 15 and 20 Amp 125 Volt outlets are required to have AFCI protection and the only place to put that AFCI is at the origination of the branch circuit because:
210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection.

(B) Dwelling Unit Bedrooms. All branch circuits that supply 125-volt, single-phase, 15- and 20-ampere outlets installed in dwelling unit bedrooms shall be protected by an arc-fault circuit interrupter listed to provide protection of the entire branch circuit.
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The OverCurrent Protection determines the size of the Outlet on the circuit. A two pole 15 Amp OCP means the outlets on the branch circuit are 15 A 250 V (let's not go into multiwire circuits for the moment. . .pretend there is no neutral in my hypothetical, here). A single pole 10 Amp OCP means the outlets are 10 A 125 V. Neither of these are included in 210.12(B), therefore do not require AFCI.

The question is, not should the outlet have AFCI, to me, but, rather, what does a 10 Amp 125 volt OCP & branch circuit with outlets look like by NEC?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

True enough Don. If I remember correctly, that point has been discussed/debated here before, and it seems like a big weakness in the code language that should be corrected. Hence my use of quotes for "outlets."

Al,

Thanks for the clarification. I am looking at this through the lens of 120 volt general purpose bedroom receptacle outlets, contact devices, slots into which plugs are inserted, etc ;) = AFCI protection required.

I suppose I am focusing too much on the intent rather than the words. The words just get me frustrated, so I take on a common sense approach. That doesn't always work when discussing matters such as these. :eek:

At the very least, it proves the idea that where there's a will, there's a way to defeat the AFCI requirement.

{Edit to address Al's simultaneous post)

[ January 26, 2005, 11:39 AM: Message edited by: peter d ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Peter D.,

I agree there is a "common sense" approach that asks: "Why defeat the AFCI requirement with a 10 Amp breaker?"

I'd hate to have to defend my installation in a court of law after some catastrophe that had origins including my wily 10 Amp work around. . .BUT. . .

And this is what I was mulling over in the last part of an hour. . .

The anecdotes are starting to accumulate that certain types of equipment and some specific pieces of equipment don't reside, with impunity, under AFCI protection. Electronic ballasts and surge suppressor MOVs are one thing. . .BUT. . .

Hypothetically,

Say, I have a client that is in extended home medical care that has certain electrically powered machines that are part of his medical requirements. . .the AFCI trips. If I connect the equipment to a 10 Amp circuit (assuming the nameplate characteristics of the equipment allow it to reside under 10 A OCP), then I have satisfied the NEC and allowed my client to have his needed medical equipment.

That's just one possibility.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Got Me Coffee!

Don is 100% right about the outlets not having a rating, the device does, and hence the rewording in the 2005 code book.

As it stands now, 2002 code book does not require arc-fault due to the grammer. But I wouldn't want to try not putting them in, hanging my hat on that rack. 90.4 goes a long way......right up to the court house......Don't want to climb them stairs for an argument like this one(I use to smoke 2-packs a day about 2 years ago, should have quit when the marlboro guy died of lung cancer, but couldn't).

Doesn't Table 210.21(B)(3) state that 15 and 20 amp receptacle outlets are only permitted on 15 and 20 amp circuits?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

No, you're looking at it backwards. If you have a 15 amp circuit rating, you're not allowed to install a receptacle rated over 15 amps.

Since 10 amp breakers are by code "atypical", then there would be no reason for the NEC to address them. :)
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

If you have a 15 amp circuit rating, you're not allowed to install a receptacle rated over 15 amps.
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Wasn't this discussed at length not long ago and decided that this was acceptable, although not very practical. :confused:

Something about a 30 amp twist-loc on a 15 amp circuit.
Edit:
Found it...
15 amp recepticle on a 20 amp circuit
The URL looks backwards but it addresses this

......Mike

[ January 26, 2005, 09:57 PM: Message edited by: woofy ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

George,
I can install a 50 amp receptacle on a 40 amp circuit.
The receptacle have to comply with the table. Don't they? :D
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Yeah...?

Look at 15 ampere circuit rating on the table. It says "Not over 15" by it. By 40, it says "40 or 50". What's your point? :)

Since 10 amp branch circuits are not one of the standard ratings mentioned in 240.6, the NEC isn't compelled to talk about them.

It comes down to idiotproofing. They didn't anticipate an idiot putting anything on a 10 amp branch circuit, so they underestimated the idiots. :D

[ January 27, 2005, 03:37 PM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

georgestolz,
With reference to you statement
Since 10 amp branch circuits are not one of the standard ratings mentioned in 240.6, the NEC isn't compelled to talk about them.
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From your post then what you are saying is that evenm if 10a carry a UL489 listing NEC2002 art. 240.6 which also includes the statement " The use of fuses and inverse time circuit breakers with nonstandard ampere ratings shall be permitted " doesn't apply. If not, why has it been included in the code?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Okay how about amending my statement thusly:
Since 10 amp branch circuits are not one of the standard ratings mentioned in 240.6, the NEC isn't compelled to specifically reference them in tables, FPN's, and other codes.
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Clearer? :roll:
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

romex jockey,
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
210.14(J)(1)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I can't find this in my 2002.
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a typo, i meant 220.14(J)(1)

and no, i'm not pulling anyones leg here, in fact i can recall a number of minimalists threads on the net where the number of ciruits was debated

so i see this as a fairly obvious loohole, which is why we are debating it in the first place right?

lets focus on the message instead of discrediting the messenger then please
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

You can't install a branch circuit rated at 10 amps using #14 wire.
210.3 Rating.
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device ...
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The key here is the rating of the branch circuit using a 10 amp breaker and #14 copper will be 15 amps because that is the maximum permitted OCPD for that circuit.
Don
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by don_resqcapt19:
The key here is the rating of the branch circuit using a 10 amp breaker and #14 copper will be 15 amps because that is the maximum permitted OCPD for that circuit.
Don
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That doesn't make sense? What if I use 10 AWG for all my 15-ampere branch circuits. Does that mean they are actually 30-ampere branch circuits because that is maximum permitted OCPD for that circuit?
 
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