side stepping arc fault breakers

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Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

406.2 Receptacle Rating and Type.

(B) Receptacles and cord connectors shall be rated not less than 15 amperes, 125 volts, or 15 amperes, 250 volts, and shall be of a type not suitable for use as lampholders.

210.3 Rating.
...The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes.

When installing more than one receptacle (a single receptacle is 1 receptacle, a duplex receptacle is 2), it is other than an "individual branch circuit", so one would have to install a 15 or 20 ampere branch circuit to an average bedroom [210.52(A)(1)&(2)] as they generally have more than 1 receptacle.

210.12(B)would come into play and Arc-Fault protection would be required.

Pierre

I had to read some of the last posts to see what was generating so much interest - I only read the last ten or so. I could be way off the mark here, but posted anyway :)
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

2005 NEC

Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits


Cucuit Rating Receptacle rating
(Amperes) (Amperes)

15 ------ Not Over 15
20 ------ 15 or 20
30 ------ 30
40 ------ 40 or 50
50 ------ 50


that is what the code Permits to be on those particular branch circuits
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by izak:
2005 NEC

Table 210.21(B)(3) Receptacle Ratings for Various Size Circuits
Click to expand...
Table 210.21(B)(3) does not apply to single receptacles on individual branch circuits.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Izak, as Bob says, "two or more receptacles" is not the immediate conversation.

Roger
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Roger, are you saying you can supply a 50 amp electrical outlet with a 15 amp branch circuit?210.23 Permissible load "In no case shall the load exceed the branch circuit rating. An idividual branch shall be permitted to supply any load for which it is rated". Is a 15 amp circuit permitted to supply the 50 amp whatever it is that was just permitted to be plugged into the 50 amp receptacle? It is not just a matter of one rating, think of it as a system. By using the 50 amp receptacle on a 15 amp branch you are inviting a load to be served greater than the rated circuit, the receptacle allows utilization equipment that demands a higher ampacity than the circuit is rated for.If you can not see the inherent danger in that, I'm sorry, I don't think I can help. .I guess now you'll say "there was nothing plugged in when I wired it".Please remember a fuse or circuit breaker tripping is a safety,they sometimes blow up and sometimes they don't trip at all,and when that happens it ain't good.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Marc a receptacle is not a load.

We do not have to think of it 'like a system' the code does not tell us to do that.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Marc, I must say you made a good effort though. ;)

Roger
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Don, thank you for reading my post.
Please be sure that I attempted to be brief, and limited to the subject of bedroom circuits and AFCI's.

I think that my brevity might lead others to thing we disagree, when we really don't.

UL standards typically regulate what plug may be installed on an appliance. The whole point of NEMA patterns is that one doesn't try to plug a fifty amp appliance into a 15 amp circuit.
I realise that there are exceptions; I know of plenty of applications where it is OK to have a 100 amp breaker, 50 amp plug, and #12 wire...but we're not discussing welders here, are we?

As for RCD's- which are what I was referring to- I have no personal experience (I don't even know what "RCD" stands for). Those "over there with whom I've spoken insist that they are 'just like GFI's, and set at 30ma"- just as you said.
In the run-up to the AFCI requirement, it was demonstrated ad nauseum (by none other than Mike Holt) that "AFCI" did nothing to identify any kind of arc, and were, in fact, 30ma GFI's. While this is supposed to change with "combination type" AFCI's, I'm not even sure that they exist.


I will admit to there, in theory, being a difference between "listing and labeling" and "manufacturer's" instructions.....but, in reality, UL requires the manufacturer to include the labeling information as part of his instructions or packaging. We're making, in this instance, a distinction without a difference.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Iwire, I agree the receptacle is not a load but it is a device that is intended to serve a load is it not? so I guess it is a violation if ... what you plug something in?I still think 210.23 applies. You would have, by this design ,knowingly allowed, by virtue of using a 50 amp rated receptacle, which, by virtue of its rating and design, will allow a load in excess of the rating of the branch circuit you designed to be impressed upon the circuit.I think you have to assume a receptacle on an individual branch circuit will receive a load and that it will be one for which the receptacle is designed and rated for. Does Mr. Holt ever step in on these threads????
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

renosteinke,
I will admit to there, in theory, being a difference between "listing and labeling" and "manufacturer's" instructions.....but, in reality, UL requires the manufacturer to include the labeling information as part of his instructions or packaging. We're making, in this instance, a distinction without a difference.
Click to expand...
There is a difference. If there wasn't then you could never us UL classified breakers. The only instructions that are required to be followed by the code are the ones that are part of the listing and labeling.
Don
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Can I put a 15 amp receptacle on a 10 amp circuit?

This thread is just so big that it would be harder to find it in here than it would be in the NEC. And I haven't found an answer in either.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Are you telling me the 10amp 240v idividual branch ckt with a 15amp 250v twist-loc in my garage does not meet code?
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Has anybody noticed that 10 and 50 amp receptacles wont satisfy 210.52?

210.52 Dwelling Unit Receptacle Outlets. This section provides requirements for 125-volt, 15- and 20-ampere receptacle outlets. Receptacle outlets required by this section shall be in addition to any receptacle .........

Then 210.52(A) says one of the places those 15 and 20 amp receptacles go is in any bedroom.

And 210.52(A)(1) says you need to install those 15 and 20 amp receptacles so that one is within 6 ft. anywhere along the wall.

I added the 15 and 20 amp part to both 210.52(A) and 210.52(A)(1). But it seems pretty clear to me that that is what it's saying.

You can put those other 10 and 50 amp receptacles in too but you'll still need the 15 and 20 amp ones.

I think it also means you have to have at least one 15 amp receptacle.
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

Originally posted by jwelectric:
no 210.3 and 210.21 (B) (1)
Click to expand...
210.3 Rating.
Branch circuits recognized by this article shall be rated in accordance with the maximum permitted ampere rating or setting of the overcurrent device. The rating for other than individual branch circuits shall be 15, 20, 30, 40, and 50 amperes. Where conductors of higher ampacity are used for any reason, the ampere rating or setting of the specified overcurrent device shall determine the circuit rating.
Click to expand...
Clearly that allows individual branch circuits to use other ratings.

Yes 210.21(B)(1) applies to single receptacles installed on an individual branch circuits and it clearly allows the receptacle to have a higher rating than the individual branch circuit

210.21(B)(1) Single Receptacle on an Individual Branch Circuit. A single receptacle installed on an individual branch circuit shall have an ampere rating not less than that of the branch circuit.
Click to expand...
Of course that has already been pointed out. :)

jw and cram your concern seems to be the possibility that a single receptacle on an individual branch circuit may be overloaded if the branch circuit is not equal to the receptacle rating.

OK I can understand that

What NEC section prevents an overload on a typical multi-outlet branch circuit?

Five 15 amp duplex outlets all from one 15 amp breaker. That circuit can be easily overloaded.

Is it dangerous?

Does the NEC always prevent the possibility of overload?

Remember we are talking about NEC minimums and not good design practice. :)

Bob
 
Re: side stepping arc fault breakers

I don't think that there is anything left to say on this subject so I am closing it.
It is clear that the code will permit the use of a 10 amp branch circuit to feed a smoke detector as an individual branch circuit [210.3]. 210.52 requires 15 or 20A rated receptacles and Table 210.21(B)(3) requires the use of 15 or 20 amp branch circuits for these receptacles. The question of using a 10 amp branch circuit to serve the lighting outlets is not as clear, but it is my opinion that mulit-outlet branch circuits are limited to 15,20,30,40 and 50A per 210.3.
Don
 
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