Side Work

[wawireguy]

You just described most electrical contractors!

How does the saying go "if your hired out to a man......"

IMO, sidework is bad, bad, bad. In all cases, the customer is getting a bad deal and the worker is taking a big time risk. Even in the remote circumstance when "sideworker" is "insured and insured" its a bad situation.


1. The worker is under capitalized so cannot handle or afford mistakes or miscommunications. Are you going to make a liability claim over $800 dispute?

2. The worker cannot afford to mess up because they have put their butt on the line and this job could cost them their rent. The worker will do disparate and shotty work to get the job done and get the check.

3. The worker lacks knowledge and cannot get help or advice immediately because he is generally being sneaky about his project. (that's why side workers love this board...they can't ask their boss.)

4. The worker lacks access to quality parts and materials and general buys from HD or lowes.

5. The worker does not control his own schedule so cannot come back the next morning or immediately respond to a call back. If they need to work late or come into work on a weekend, they are forced to cancel on the customer.

6. The worker has no backup if he needs help. So he takes risk and cuts corners.

7. The worker does not have ALL the tools necessary to do the job correctly so he cuts corners and takes risk. Uses a ladder to small or the wrong bit or the wrong tool for the application and the customer gets a less than perfect project or installation.

8. The workers have to come during odd hours or weekends because they have a day job. They are generally tired and wornout and distracted because their is someplace they are supposed to be (like home with their family).

9. The workers do not have stock vehicles so they need to make multiple trips to the local hardware store. This make even a small job take longer.

10. The worker does not have an account or someone to do his taxes so he cheats on his taxes.

11. The worker generally does not keep records of his job because its a "one off." There is no reference or evidence in the case of a dispute or fire.

12. If the worker moves, dies, changes his cell phone number, breaks a leg, goes to jail, joins the army, etc...the customers warranty is GONE.

13. The worker generally does not have forms or invoices so leaves the customer nothing for future home buyers or in case of a dispute.

14. Permits....psh please....

15. The worker has no clout or backing in case of a failure to pay. He generally has no signed invoice, no collection system, and no real way of applying pressure to get paid. Some people actively search out these small guys to take advantage of them. Ask anyone that's been in business more than a week. These customers FIND YOU.

16. The worker often runs the risk of getting fired for side working. Even if no one finds out, his work performance is hindered by his lack of sleep and constant cellphone use. This will put him behind when it comes to raises and ahead when it comes to firing.


So, there it is. You have taken a big time risk, given the customer a bad deal, and if you are lucky will walk about with a little cash. Its Vegas without the air fair.

BTW, being "licensed and Insured" company is a joke. I could open "Ohmy's Licensed and Insured Electrical" tomorrow morning with liability, business license, and insurance for less than $200 bucks. Licensed and Insured just doesn't mean anything these days.

 

[satcom]

You just described most electrical contractors!

He did a good job, of describing the side job guys.

 

[jaylectricity]

It would prove you have the ability to buy basic materials.

What does that have to do with anything? If I can't buy basic materials I won't be able to do the job anyway.

 

[VoltzElectric]

1. What is not true about that post?

2. Yes, most of it can be applied to "legitimate contractors" which is why people need to start rethinking what it actually takes to be a legitimate contractor.

3. What type of people do electrical work is my business! Both literally and figuratively. Side Workers, low ballers, etc. hurt our business, our profession, our reputation, our wallet, etc. So, yes....I care. Why else would I take the time to post?

BTW, I realize that this conversation is offensive to many guys on this board but it doesn't make it nonsense.

If you are starting a business as many of you have, you have to start somewhere. If you are good at what you do, and you charge less because you have less overhead, and can afford to do so to get your name out there then how is this bad for everyone else. Its a capitalistic society, the one with the best service (this includes price) wins. If you want more work, you have to do good work and have good service, if you dont, you wont last, so therefore it doesnt hurt your/our reputation as Master Electricians. Everyone needs to start somewhere, thats what keeps everything in check.

Side question here: How many of you pull permits when you are wiring something up in your own home? Just curious!

 

[satcom]

If you are starting a business as many of you have, you have to start somewhere. If you are good at what you do, and you charge less because you have less overhead, and can afford to do so to get your name out there then how is this bad for everyone else. Its a capitalistic society, the one with the best service (this includes price) wins. If you want more work, you have to do good work and have good service, if you dont, you wont last, so therefore it doesnt hurt your/our reputation as Master Electricians. Everyone needs to start somewhere, thats what keeps everything in check.

Side question here: How many of you pull permits when you are wiring something up in your own home? Just curious!

No I always get permits for my own home, because my home insurance policy will only pay on a loss provided I secured permits for all work requiring them, I am not crazy eniough to risk my largest investment to save a few bucks. Just talk to someone that lost everything because they tried to save a few bucks.

 

[bradleyelectric]

Agreed, credit check & references from local AHJ's would be better than just Licensed and Insured, but owner builders avoiding permit fees and inspections rarely seek such credentials.

So I suppose I should be giving random strangers my social security number to prove what, exactly?

I'm not sure the credit check issue needs to be giving your SS# to random strangers. 1 area around here requires a small bond in order to be licensed in the jurisdiction. That would require a credit check by the bonding agent. It would prove you have the ability to buy basic materials.

What does that have to do with anything? If I can't buy basic materials I won't be able to do the job anyway.

I have heard of people having the homeowner buying materials so they can provide cheap labor to do jobs. Nothing I have said is directed at you. I am just trying to see how what is being discussed applies to what I do for a living.

 

[PetrosA]

A little more NoLux, a little less Vitriol

A little more NoLux, a little less Vitriol

Definitely some emotion in this thread... It reminds me of the photography forums a few years back when every wannabe with a decent digital camera started doing weddings. The established wedding photographers (who often charged up to and over $10,000 for one wedding) were crying and gnashing their teeth. The reality though was that business is business and sometimes the only thing a customer cares about is a low price. There are trunk slammers in every country and there always will be because they satisfy a certain market.

Sadly, there was only one comment about electricians' wages and how that affects whether people take side work or not. If you think of side work as a form of corruption, and make a comparison to police it gets interesting. If police were underpaid, it would be easy and common for them to take $50 instead of handing out a ticket (I saw how that works abroad). If good electricians were all paid a decent salary, why would they want to make a habit out of side work? If you as an employer have problems because your guys are doing side work, re-evaluate how you treat them. Are you maintaining them and treating them properly as you would any other valuable tool you own or not?

Mistreated tools will eventually break down and may become hazardous to the user.

 

[macmikeman]

Seems like somebody or other was knocking one man outfits and decided they all act the same. Lets see. I am one. I have a contractors lic., a masters lic., a journey lic., I'm insured to the hilt, I do provide contracts and invoices. I give warrenty. I obey regulatory rules. I do not ad on craiglist. Tools- lets see, I own a 555 SBC bender, a Greenlee 777. I have a coring drill with bits up to 6" (ok, a couple have a tooth missing, but they work fine.) I have a rigid pipe 300 machine and tons and tons of various size cutters. I have a hog for large pipe up to 4". I have 5 full size gang boxes full of various tools. I have a Greenlee Super Tugger with all the shivs you want, even some 36" ones. I have 5 sets of Greenlee reel jacks. I own a paint pot and compressor. (for painting conduits mostly after installed). I got meters for just about everything except no bench occili- scopes. Before I sold it to a former employee I had a fiber optic fusion splicer, an otdr card in a compac portable laptop computer, tons of fiber cleavers, scopes, various equip for fiber. I owned 2 certification testers for lan cables, one would print out results or save to computer. I own many Apple computers, and all the office gear I need to run my show. I own my warehouse and my office (and its in Hawaii, so you go ahead and guess the value.) I have wired department stores, many fast food, many offices, some hospital jobs, some CCTV and Access Control projects. Too many houses to count. Lots of large size conduit jobs for various feeders and so forth. Lots of chiller replacements way up on highrise roofs, and all the controls to go along with a building chiller. I have an accountant to do my taxes, and I pay my taxes. I take out permits. I have put away for retirement for decades every month. And last thing I would like to say is that for the last two weeks I have been re-doing a large job that a multi-truck large company completely screwed up with bad not to code wiring, so I am making it right. They did so much hack work it was pathetic. They are big in the phone book. Now go ahead and call me a trunk slammer.

 

[PetrosA]

... Now go ahead and call me a trunk slammer.

Impossible - you can't get the trunk closed with all that stuff... you must use bailing twine to tie it down.

 

[ramsy]

I own many Apple computers, ..Now go ahead and call me a trunk slammer.

I knew I should have bean using a MAC.

 

[Ohmy]

Seems like somebody or other was knocking one man outfits and decided they all act the same. Lets see. I am one. I have a contractors lic., a masters lic., a journey lic., I'm insured to the hilt, I do provide contracts and invoices. I give warrenty. I obey regulatory rules. I do not ad on craiglist. Tools- lets see, I own a 555 SBC bender, a Greenlee 777. I have a coring drill with bits up to 6" (ok, a couple have a tooth missing, but they work fine.) I have a rigid pipe 300 machine and tons and tons of various size cutters. I have a hog for large pipe up to 4". I have 5 full size gang boxes full of various tools. I have a Greenlee Super Tugger with all the shivs you want, even some 36" ones. I have 5 sets of Greenlee reel jacks. I own a paint pot and compressor. (for painting conduits mostly after installed). I got meters for just about everything except no bench occili- scopes. Before I sold it to a former employee I had a fiber optic fusion splicer, an otdr card in a compac portable laptop computer, tons of fiber cleavers, scopes, various equip for fiber. I owned 2 certification testers for lan cables, one would print out results or save to computer. I own many Apple computers, and all the office gear I need to run my show. I own my warehouse and my office (and its in Hawaii, so you go ahead and guess the value.) I have wired department stores, many fast food, many offices, some hospital jobs, some CCTV and Access Control projects. Too many houses to count. Lots of large size conduit jobs for various feeders and so forth. Lots of chiller replacements way up on highrise roofs, and all the controls to go along with a building chiller. I have an accountant to do my taxes, and I pay my taxes. I take out permits. I have put away for retirement for decades every month. And last thing I would like to say is that for the last two weeks I have been re-doing a large job that a multi-truck large company completely screwed up with bad not to code wiring, so I am making it right. They did so much hack work it was pathetic. They are big in the phone book. Now go ahead and call me a trunk slammer.

Of course there are good one man outfits, Mac. There are plenty of big companies that send out "technicians" who are unlicensed, untrained, stoned dingbats. The size of a company is an important factor in its ability to provide great service, but its only one factor. BTW, we are talking about side workers not good guys like you. No harm intended.

 

[satcom]

One man outfits are not a problem and never were, I can tell you the trunk slammer story, looking at it from the other side, I have had either myself of some of my licensed crew on a job where the job truck was picking up material or running on a short trip, and all the police or AHJ could see was men with tools going in and out of the building, on one job I went to the post office, and was gone for 10 minutes, when I came back to the job, the police were there ready to arrest, cuff and transport my crew to the lockup, they din't see the permit in the window, because it fell to the floor, lucky I got back when I did, however I wonder if everyone that posts understands operating without licenses, and permits is illegal, I believe when someone says trunlk slammer, they are talking about the unlicensed, non permited, non tax paying cheats that pray on trusting consumers.
Thank you,

 

[LarryFine]

Impossible - you can't get the trunk closed with all that stuff... you must use bailing twine to tie it down.

Nope, scraps of NM.

 

[growler]

I believe when someone says trunlk slammer, they are talking about the unlicensed, non permited, non tax paying cheats that pray on trusting consumers.

That just about covers it. I would add that there are those with a license that operate under the radar much of the time and think an electrical license is a license to steal.

I know of one GC that does about as much work that's non permitted as he does permitted and he does find ECs that will work that way.

I think you are either legitimate or you are not and it can't be half way or some of the time. Even when people get away with it then it's always hanging over their head and can come back to bite them.

 

[satcom]

That just about covers it. I would add that there are those with a license that operate under the radar much of the time and think an electrical license is a license to steal.

I know of one GC that does about as much work that's non permitted as he does permitted and he does find ECs that will work that way.

I think you are either legitimate or you are not and it can't be half way or some of the time. Even when people get away with it then it's always hanging over their head and can come back to bite them.

Excellant point, the licensed guys operate without regard, and cave to the wishes of GCs, I have had GC tell me everyone does it, I replay, not everyone just a few who have seem to of lost self respect for some reason.

 

[jaylectricity]

I have heard of people having the homeowner buying materials so they can provide cheap labor to do jobs. Nothing I have said is directed at you. I am just trying to see how what is being discussed applies to what I do for a living.

I know that...I was just trying to apply what I do for a living to the statements in this thread.

No offense taken.

 

[emahler]

Seems like somebody or other was knocking one man outfits and decided they all act the same. Lets see. I am one. I have a contractors lic., a masters lic., a journey lic., I'm insured to the hilt, I do provide contracts and invoices. I give warrenty. I obey regulatory rules. I do not ad on craiglist. Tools- lets see, I own a 555 SBC bender, a Greenlee 777. I have a coring drill with bits up to 6" (ok, a couple have a tooth missing, but they work fine.) I have a rigid pipe 300 machine and tons and tons of various size cutters. I have a hog for large pipe up to 4". I have 5 full size gang boxes full of various tools. I have a Greenlee Super Tugger with all the shivs you want, even some 36" ones. I have 5 sets of Greenlee reel jacks. I own a paint pot and compressor. (for painting conduits mostly after installed). I got meters for just about everything except no bench occili- scopes. Before I sold it to a former employee I had a fiber optic fusion splicer, an otdr card in a compac portable laptop computer, tons of fiber cleavers, scopes, various equip for fiber. I owned 2 certification testers for lan cables, one would print out results or save to computer. I own many Apple computers, and all the office gear I need to run my show. I own my warehouse and my office (and its in Hawaii, so you go ahead and guess the value.) I have wired department stores, many fast food, many offices, some hospital jobs, some CCTV and Access Control projects. Too many houses to count. Lots of large size conduit jobs for various feeders and so forth. Lots of chiller replacements way up on highrise roofs, and all the controls to go along with a building chiller. I have an accountant to do my taxes, and I pay my taxes. I take out permits. I have put away for retirement for decades every month. And last thing I would like to say is that for the last two weeks I have been re-doing a large job that a multi-truck large company completely screwed up with bad not to code wiring, so I am making it right. They did so much hack work it was pathetic. They are big in the phone book. Now go ahead and call me a trunk slammer.

you obviously charge way too much and rip off your customers...how do you sleep with yourself at night?

 

[Goroon]

But I would not have agreed to that policy to begin with, I would likely ignore it ..

But I would not have agreed to that policy to begin with, I would likely ignore it ..

Makes me think of work ethics. Vet-Boomer-Gen X- Millennials.
The work you do for me reflects on my company.
Unintentionally, the work you do for you will reflect on my company.
Eventually you will undercut me, use my resources to do your business.

In the long run, like any issue, just ignoring it does not make it go away. Time will catch up, then all the water under the bridge will have erodded any working foundation you may have had.

I work two jobs, one part time. 'WE' worked out the conditions ahead of time.

 

[LarryFine]

...how do you sleep with yourself at night?

I had to quit sleeping with myself; my snoring kept me awake.

 

[macmikeman]

I, me, and myself. Every night its a menange........