SIEMENS AFCI - Class Action Law Suit

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mtnelect

mtnelect

HVAC & Electrical Contractor
Location
Southern California
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Contractor, C10 & C20 - Semi Retired
don_resqcapt19 said:
But plenty of others have brand new out of the box equipment that trips the devices
The AFCI manufactures are trying to tell us that they know every normal arc signature of every piece of equipment that has been produced in teh past and that will be produced within the life of the AFCI...not even remotely possible.
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Thank you for your advice to do more research on my PI ... I would have never found the class action lawsuit without your suggestions.
 
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steve66

steve66

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
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Engineer
mtnelect said:
A proposed class action alleges a certain type of circuit breaker made by Siemens Industry is defective in that it is unable to distinguish between harmless and dangerous electrical arcs.
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Can any AFCI distinguish between harmless and dangerous electrical arcs??
 
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bryaak

New User
Location
Atlanta, GA
Occupation
Prooduct Manager
mtnelect said:
A proposed class action alleges a certain type of circuit breaker made by Siemens Industry is defective in that it is unable to distinguish between harmless and dangerous electrical arcs.
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Hello! Siemens has been named in a lawsuit claiming that its AFCIs have excessive “nuisance tripping.” Siemens very strongly disputes these allegations. Siemens stands by its products, which work as intended and fully meet all applicable UL specifications (which include tripping standards). Notably, there is no claim whatsoever in the lawsuit that Siemens’ AFCIs fail to trip during arcing, or are otherwise dangerous or unsafe. We cannot comment further in light of pending litigation. Siemens offers easily-accessible technical support to electricians and customers with questions about its AFCI products, including tripping. We will continue to support purchasers, as always, in identifying and addressing the actual cause of any tripping issues. If support is needed, please call us! 1-800-333-7421
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
bryaak said:
Hello! Siemens has been named in a lawsuit claiming that its AFCIs have excessive “nuisance tripping.” Siemens very strongly disputes these allegations. Siemens stands by its products, which work as intended and fully meet all applicable UL specifications (which include tripping standards). Notably, there is no claim whatsoever in the lawsuit that Siemens’ AFCIs fail to trip during arcing, or are otherwise dangerous or unsafe. We cannot comment further in light of pending litigation. Siemens offers easily-accessible technical support to electricians and customers with questions about its AFCI products, including tripping. We will continue to support purchasers, as always, in identifying and addressing the actual cause of any tripping issues. If support is needed, please call us! 1-800-333-7421
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bryaak,

Welcome to the forum.

Many people here strongly doubt the true utility of AFCI products, with significant questions about how reliably devices can reliably distinguish between harmful arcing and expected arcing. Arcs are an expected part of the normal function of some apparatus, including switches and brush commutated motors.

My own expertise lies in other fields, but I know for many testing applications, there is a necessary trade-off between false positive and false negative rates.

Does your presence here indicate that Siemens will be publicly sharing hard information that will help convince the sceptics among us? I would certainly appreciate that sort of input.

Many thanks
Jonathan Edelson
 
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hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
Siemens had an issue with the early bolt in Afci’s. A panelboard full of them created too much heat, and would trip with as little as 2 amps on the circuit. They apparently fixed that problem, as the replacement breakers seemed to work without a problem.
 
tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Whats the end game here? Code would still require them either way so then what?
Siemens could settle, then discontinue AFCI breakers or they add the cost of the lawsuit to the re-design of the breaker and now we'll have even more overpriced AFCI's.
If Siemens has no AFCI we'd have to use Classified AFCI's? But no UL wont approve that.
I feel for peoples frustration with AFCI's but, I am genuinely confused how this benefits anyone but lawyers.
 
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letgomywago

Senior Member
Location
Washington state and Oregon coast
Occupation
residential electrician
tortuga said:
Whats the end game here? Code would still require them either way so then what?
Siemens could settle, then discontinue AFCI breakers or they add the cost of the lawsuit to the re-design of the breaker and now we'll have even more overpriced AFCI's.
We'd have to use Classified AFCI's? But no UL wont approve that.
I feel for peoples frustration with AFCI's but, I am genuinely confused how this benefits anyone but lawyers.
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If a lawsuit like this was successful the evidence showing their lack of function could be reviewed by those who adopt the NEC for each state. Those boards always was written studies a court case showing that their required use is improper would make a difference. This is how the TIA for gfci on ACs happened in conjunction with the exceptionally large number of deaths and hospitalizations got this added. Unfortunately this is how things work.
 
tortuga

tortuga

Code Historian
Location
Oregon
Occupation
Electrical Design
Ahh makes sense. I am finally about to replace the 1971 split buss FPE panel in my own house next week, I am not required to upgrade to AFCI's on a panel change in Oregon so I am going to use Siemens 30ma GFPE (RCD) breakers for 15 and 20A 120V circuits.
I want to know if I have more than 30ma flowing on a EGC.
I will put AFCI's on the two bedroom circuits.
 
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