Siemens AFCI nuisance tripping ...help !

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growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
Stevenfyeager said:
Replaced all 4 new AFCI breakers with new ones. Microwave and ref are working with second new breakers. Now the two kit. countertop ones are tripping AGAIN.
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kwired said:
I thought he replaced some of the breakers and problem went away but then came back later.
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He said they had 4 breakers tripping and he replaced all four. Now the breakers for the microwave and the frig are working.

He says that now the kitchen counter top breakers are tripping again.

The trip indicator will let you know if you are looking for an arc fault or a ground fault.
 
C

cookerobert21

Member
Location
East Yaphank New York
ptonsparky said:
RJs right, start with your ohm, or continuity tester and then move up to the megger. Repeat the same steps you did with the tester.

Reading the Fine Manual is the 1st step though.
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Troubleshooting was never my strong point what the best way to test for a arc-fault and what would you look for while testing with you ohm/continuity/megger test? Any trips?

Sent from my SM-T567V using Tapatalk
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
cookerobert21 said:
Troubleshooting was never my strong point what the best way to test for a arc-fault and what would you look for while testing with you ohm/continuity/megger test? Any trips?

Sent from my SM-T567V using Tapatalk
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To find the cause of tripping on arc fault function is not easy. What is easy and common nuisance tripping is to make sure there are no ground faults or cross connections of any circuit conductor to other circuits. Those will cause the ground fault feature in the device to trip.

A megger is nothing more than an ohmmeter with high test voltage. You are looking for continuity between the EGC and any conductor of your circuit, anything with reading above 20 megohms is probably not causing you any troubles. Less than that find out where it is coming from, good chance your nuisance trips go away if you eliminate it.
 
Chamuit

Chamuit

Grumpy Old Man
Location
Texas
Occupation
Electrician
Don't forget to ask the renters what they were doing. Sometimes those 20A breakers won't hold when Susie is using the blow-dryer, Mom's vacuuming, and Billy's making toast on the same receptacle with 2 power strips daisy chained.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Chamuit said:
Don't forget to ask the renters what they were doing. Sometimes those 20A breakers won't hold when Susie is using the blow-dryer, Mom's vacuuming, and Billy's making toast on the same receptacle with 2 power strips daisy chained.
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OBD will indicate it was not from GFCI or AFCI if that is reason for trip.
 
growler

growler

Senior Member
Location
Atlanta,GA
ptonsparky said:
Yesterday service call was solved with OBD which indicated an internal failure. CH.
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That's really great isn't it, it will even tell you if the breaker is bad.


Edit: I wonder if the OP has gotten any farther with his AFCI problem. The Seimens OBD is not quite that good.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
ptonsparky said:
IIRC, it’s less than a year old and that code will make it easier to return to my vendor for exchange.
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Just buy a replacement from Menards and then return the bad one in the packaging your replacement came in - then some other poor SOB will get the bad one as they will put it back on the shelf:(
 
W@ttson

W@ttson

Senior Member
Location
USA
Stevenfyeager said:
I ran 4 new circuits, in an old house, all new wires, new Siemens AFCI breakers. All 4 have been tripping. One Samsung refrig., two countertop outlets, one microwave. In KY, all new circuits must be AFCI. Replaced all 4 new AFCI breakers with new ones. Microwave and ref are working with second new breakers. Now the two kit. countertop ones are tripping AGAIN. I had to surface run the 4 circuits in pvc to a j box, then from there, romex to each separate outlet. I did not share any neutrals, but did use only one ground in the conduit. You think that could be it ?
I mostly work in IN. About to resign my KY license because of AFCI requirements over there. any suggestions ? ? You think I should try AFCI receptacles ? Thank you.
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Hey, this is an old post and I hope you haven't given up your KY license since then but I can add two things just incase people have this issue in the future.

I work with Siemens panels pretty much elusively and have worked with Siemens tech support on this issue.

I have had an issue where a newly rewired house still didn't have the final connections made to a peninsula receptacle and it kept tripping the breaker. After the final connection was made, it stopped.

I have had an issue with an insinkerator (super heated water dispenser at the sink) that would trip the breaker. It would take about 1 hr or so and then trip it. Talking with tech support they said to plug this surge suppressor into the outlet and then plug the insinkerator into it:

This helped in that it increased the time that the circuit stayed untripped. It lasted maybe 12 hours and then tripped. (pretty fascinating to me, because the time delay would indicate to me that it is related to a cycle in the sinkerator and that is why without the surge suppressor it would trip when maybe the heater turns on? I don't know but in that 12 hr time frame it should have gone through the cycles multiple times).

In the end, that wasn't a plausible solution. Had to change the breaker.

The reason why they say to replace the breaker with new ones is that if for some reason you got a "new" one but in actuality it was a "new" one but just never used or opened but it is from stock that was around from last year that breaker may not have the latest firmware. Siemens constantly tries to update their algorithm for detecting the arcs and that is why it is important to get the latest version.


Siemens also has a tool where you can test AFCI circuits. It is expensive though.

Also keep in mind that the AFCI requires a min load of 5A (i think that was the number) before it starts sensing for Arcs.
 
kwired

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
spraymax6 said:
Hey, this is an old post and I hope you haven't given up your KY license since then but I can add two things just incase people have this issue in the future.

I work with Siemens panels pretty much elusively and have worked with Siemens tech support on this issue.

I have had an issue where a newly rewired house still didn't have the final connections made to a peninsula receptacle and it kept tripping the breaker. After the final connection was made, it stopped.

I have had an issue with an insinkerator (super heated water dispenser at the sink) that would trip the breaker. It would take about 1 hr or so and then trip it. Talking with tech support they said to plug this surge suppressor into the outlet and then plug the insinkerator into it:

This helped in that it increased the time that the circuit stayed untripped. It lasted maybe 12 hours and then tripped. (pretty fascinating to me, because the time delay would indicate to me that it is related to a cycle in the sinkerator and that is why without the surge suppressor it would trip when maybe the heater turns on? I don't know but in that 12 hr time frame it should have gone through the cycles multiple times).

In the end, that wasn't a plausible solution. Had to change the breaker.

The reason why they say to replace the breaker with new ones is that if for some reason you got a "new" one but in actuality it was a "new" one but just never used or opened but it is from stock that was around from last year that breaker may not have the latest firmware. Siemens constantly tries to update their algorithm for detecting the arcs and that is why it is important to get the latest version.


Siemens also has a tool where you can test AFCI circuits. It is expensive though.

Also keep in mind that the AFCI requires a min load of 5A (i think that was the number) before it starts sensing for Arcs.
Click to expand...
And why should we as either a contractor or the final consumer need to replace these items just because they updated the firmware? This just one of the major problems I have with the AFCI's in general. They forced them into code so they could sell them, but they were not perfected yet. Being able to update firmware in the field would IMO would be one of the best improvements they could make on them so far. Is possible for a lot of other software driven items and has been even way back when you had to update firmware by replacing a program module chip but not the entire piece of equipment or have a special flashing device to reprogram that chip.
 
R

retirede

Senior Member
Location
Illinois
spraymax6 said:
Hey, this is an old post and I hope you haven't given up your KY license since then but I can add two things just incase people have this issue in the future.

I work with Siemens panels pretty much elusively and have worked with Siemens tech support on this issue.

I have had an issue where a newly rewired house still didn't have the final connections made to a peninsula receptacle and it kept tripping the breaker. After the final connection was made, it stopped.

I have had an issue with an insinkerator (super heated water dispenser at the sink) that would trip the breaker. It would take about 1 hr or so and then trip it. Talking with tech support they said to plug this surge suppressor into the outlet and then plug the insinkerator into it:

This helped in that it increased the time that the circuit stayed untripped. It lasted maybe 12 hours and then tripped. (pretty fascinating to me, because the time delay would indicate to me that it is related to a cycle in the sinkerator and that is why without the surge suppressor it would trip when maybe the heater turns on? I don't know but in that 12 hr time frame it should have gone through the cycles multiple times).

In the end, that wasn't a plausible solution. Had to change the breaker.

The reason why they say to replace the breaker with new ones is that if for some reason you got a "new" one but in actuality it was a "new" one but just never used or opened but it is from stock that was around from last year that breaker may not have the latest firmware. Siemens constantly tries to update their algorithm for detecting the arcs and that is why it is important to get the latest version.


Siemens also has a tool where you can test AFCI circuits. It is expensive though.

Also keep in mind that the AFCI requires a min load of 5A (i think that was the number) before it starts sensing for Arcs.
Click to expand...

I like it that you work “elusively”!

AFCI logic is quite elusive!
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
kwired said:
In true HO or handyman spirit, make sure that it is a 30 amp breaker also;)
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Don’t even have to be a handyman, over the years I’ve went behind this one contractor changing out all the 30 amp single pole breakers he installed. After about 30 years, he finally got his license revoked after somebody sued him.
 
H

hillbilly1

Senior Member
Location
North Georgia mountains
Occupation
Owner/electrical contractor
ptonsparky said:
Do you suppose that will stop him, or merely slow him up a bit?
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They let him keep his plumbing license, but finally retired. I went behind him on a new commercial building he roped. The tenants were complaining about the outlets sparking every time they plugged something in. Block walls and furring strips, he used 1 1/2” deep shallow cut in boxes. Wires were getting pinched and shorting out. Noticed a brown wire coming out of the panel, and thought “That’s a weird color of romex?” Traced it down, he had ran 14-2 on a 30 amp dp for the water heater!
 
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