Siemens New Tandem AFCI Breakers

[Breaker-Box-Boy]

Saw these available at Lowes, anyone have any experience with their new tandem afcis? Looking to upgrade an existing panel

15-Amp 1-Pole Tandem CAFCI Pigtail: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-15...bination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker/5001940781
20-Amp 1-Pole Tandem CAFCI Pigtail: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-20...bination-Arc-Fault-Circuit-Breaker/5001940993
15-Amp 1-Pole Tandem CAFCI PON: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-15...lt-Plug-On-Neutral-Circuit-Breaker/5001940533
20-Amp 1-Pole Tandem CAFCI PON: https://www.lowes.com/pd/Siemens-20...lt-Plug-On-Neutral-Circuit-Breaker/5001940615

 

[mbrooke]

Well, I can't say I dislike the concept.

 

[LarryFine]

BBB, welcome to the forum. May we call you B?

Don't the neutral pigtails need t be rated for 30/40 amps, respectively?

 

[augie47]

The ones I saw t

BBB, welcome to the forum. May we call you B?

Don't the neutral pigtails need t be rated for 30/40 amps, respectively?

I posted about some Siemens AFCI that allowed the branch circuit neutral to terminate on the panel neutral bar rather than on the breaker. I believe the ones I saw were twins.

Edit: I found a cut sheet on them (attached) and they have both plug on & pitail neutral. Does not appear to eb upsized.. good question.

https://www.downloads.siemens.com/download-center/Download.aspx?pos=download&fct=getasset&id1=BTLV_70495

 

[jap]

These seem to have a single pigtail that services both breakers.

At least by the picture anyway.

JAP>

 

[synchro]

I posted about some Siemens AFCI that allowed the branch circuit neutral to terminate on the panel neutral bar rather than on the breaker. I believe the ones I saw were twins.

Edit: I found a cut sheet on them (attached) and they have both plug on & pitail neutral. Does not appear to be upsized... good question.

And so the neutral pigtail would only have to supply the electronics within the breaker.

 

[Breaker-Box-Boy]

yeah there is only a single neutral pigtail, so faster wiring and less space. The yellow indicator flags on the load wires are a pretty cool feature. Found a short video clip:

 

[LarryFine]

Looking at the linked PDF, it says:
"Siemens CAFCI Plug-On breakers now have a single load lug(s) only. Wiring made easier with the neutral lug removed. These breakers can be installed in the same manner as the thermal magnetic breakers. This allows the installer to land ground and neutral conductors in the load center before installing the breaker and load conductor."

Yet, the pigtail pic shows the neutral going through the breaker.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

So this makes another breaker that leaves out what I consider to be the most important and functional part of an AFCI...that being a ground fault detection circuit.

 

[ramsy]

Siemens & SQ-D still use 30mA Ground Fault detection to pass UL 1699.

GE & Eaton pass UL 1699 using a similar GF function > 30mA.

 

[Breaker-Box-Boy]

There is no ground fault detection on these tandem AFCIs, but that's the same with single AFCIs. That's why there are 2 load lugs only and no need to return the branch (load) neutral to the breaker like you do on a GFCI breaker

The standard residential Siemens Dual Functions and GFCIs have Class A (5mA) ground fault protection. This is the same with SqD, Eaton and GE.

 

[macmikeman]

Mikey Likey! Too often I have run into problems of no place to put in an afci in crowded panels and had to engineer in a sub panel to accommodate a new circuit . I hope Eaton jumps on this bandwagon and GE as well.

 

[ramsy]

..there are 2 load lugs only and no need to return the branch (load) neutral to the breaker like you do on a GFCI breaker

I see that, but why not brag about it the way GE & Eaton do? Leaving such selling point unpublished is not likely.

Another possibility, Siemens neutral pigtail serves both twin lugs with 42 Amp fixture wire, 150°C ECTFE, using an electrical conductive thermal insulator that keeps the breaker temperature below the listed 40°C.

 

[romex jockey]

There is no ground fault detection on these tandem AFCIs, but that's the same with single AFCIs. That's why there are 2 load lugs only and no need to return the branch (load) neutral to the breaker like you do on a GFCI breaker

The standard residential Siemens Dual Functions and GFCIs have Class A (5mA) ground fault protection. This is the same with SqD, Eaton and GE.

Don's point is the chief operating component , a toroidal coil for any 'enhanced ' breaker, is bypassed B......~RJ~

 

[ramsy]

Any reading material to support AFCI's can't pass UL 1699 without toroidal coils?

Unlike the Don, we may require references from unrequited legends.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Siemens & SQ-D still use 30mA Ground Fault detection to pass UL 1699.

GE & Eaton pass UL 1699 using a similar GF function > 30mA.

GE has not had a ground fault protection circuit in their AFCIs for a number of years, and the BR line of Eaton breakers no longer has GFP.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Any reading material to support AFCI's can't pass UL 1699 without toroidal coils?

Unlike the Don, we may require references from unrequited legends.

None of the original branch circuit/feeder type AFCIs could pass the required tests without adding a GFP function. However there are at least 3 manufacturers who have found ways to pass all of the UL AFCI requirements without a ground fault function in the breaker.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

Don's point is the chief operating component , a toroidal coil for any 'enhanced ' breaker, is bypassed B......~RJ~

My point is that the GFP function provides most of the tripping both of the nuisance type and for real faults, and AFCIs without a GFP function are pretty much worthless.

After they found a way to pass all of the UL AFCI tests without GFP, the parts required to provide that function were eliminated from the product as a profit increasing measure.

 

[ramsy]

GE has not had a ground fault protection circuit in their AFCIs for a number of years, and the BR line of Eaton breakers no longer has GFP.

In the field when I fix GE AFCI trouble, solely by un-tying neutrals between different circuits, what is that AFCI doing?

This is not the dual function breaker, which includes a 6mA GFCI function.

I believe GE's AFCI still monitor current imbalance, perhaps using a different ground fault detection higher than 30mA.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In the field when I fix GE AFCI trouble, solely by un-tying neutrals between different circuits, what is that AFCI doing?

This is not the dual function breaker, which includes a 6mA GFCI function.

I believe GE's AFCI still monitor current imbalance, perhaps using a different ground fault detection higher than 30mA.

I know that they have single pole AFCIs that can share a neutral, so I am sure at least some of their breakers do not have GFP.