Single Phase Load Calculations on Three Phase system

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Dennis Alwon

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Retired Electrical Contractor
Jomaul said:
13 fixtures = max of 5 connected to any 2 legs
1200w * 5 = 6000 watts
6000watts / 2 = 3000 watts per phase
3000 * 3 = 9000 watts total load
9000 / 240 * 1.73 =21.65
21.65 * 1.25 = 27.06 amps

Could this be correct?


That is basically what I had done but somehow you have 5 connected at any 2 phase. Wouldn't you need to then multiply by 2 and use 10.
When we used that formula for the range calculation we did that-- remember.

Thus 21.65 (answer at the end before the 1.25) * 2= 43.3.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
Dennis,

IMHO there is no 'right answer' because you can always put more and more effort into closer and closer refinements of the answer.

Each one of the solutions provided made different approximations and simplifications, and these intentional factors are on top of any errors. Each simplification will introduce errors, and it becomes a judgement call to determine if the expected error is small enough. Remember that there are things that no-one bothers bringing in to these calculations, such as manufacturing variability or supply voltage variability. A 1200VA lamp may draw more or less than 1200VA, and a 240V supply may be more or less than 240V...and a 12ga wire may be thicker or thinner than 12ga :)

On top of this, different people are using different lamp loads in their examples. In the below, I will re-calculate the various approaches as best I can, using a supply voltage of 240V, a lamp load of 1200VA, and 13 lamps.

1) jbwhite (the original post) essentially was saying 'figure out the worst imbalance, and then assume a balanced three phase load where each leg has as many lamps as the most heavily loaded leg'. Pretty reasonable and simple. There was an error in the calculation, in that he calculates the single phase load but doesn't correctly take this single phase load and combine it into a three phase load. My recalculation gives a load of 43.3A/phase.

2) Dennis, you play a slight variation, figuring out the worst imbalance as seen by a single phase leg, and then assuming a balanced three phase system that looks like that. You don't bother with vector addition to get the single phase load, so you are basically doing the 'assume the system is balanced' but at the level of each leg, rather than for the whole three phase system. Still quite reasonable and simple. I get 39A/phase.

3) iwire basically says 'treat this as a balanced three phase system, it will be close enough.' My recalculation gives 37.5A/phase.

4) bob gives the first answer calling for vector addition. Smart$ later does the vector addition with a spread sheet.

5) Lou calculates it two ways. First by figuring the single phase loads, and adding these up by leg, without compensating for the phase angle difference, and then by assuming a worst case balanced three phase load.

For Lou's first method I recalculate 45A on the heavily loaded legs. Note: 39 * (2/1.732) = 45; so the difference between Lou's and Dennis' method is in how loads on individual branches were added up.

For Lou's second method, I get 43.3A/phase, the same as the original method with the 1.732 factor brought in.

6) bob gives an approach that drops the vector addition: calculate this by assuming a balanced three phase load for the _balanced_ portion, and then simply adding the unbalanced portion, without worrying about vectors. 12 lamps balanced gives 34.7A. The unbalanced lamp is drawing 5A, so I just add this to the legs in question, giving 39.7A.

7) Smart$ presents a spreadsheet that does the calculations using a simplified equation that would give the vector addition results if you assume an exact 120 degree phase angle difference. This is itself an approximation, but far closer than simply adding the values up. My recalculation gives 39A on the heavily loaded legs (I get a different number because Smart$ assumed 1200W and 0.9 power factor; I am assuming 1200VA with the power factor in the 1200 number)

IMHO approach 6 is the one that makes the most sense if doing this on paper and pencil: figure out the balanced load, and then add something for the unbalanced portion. It isn't as accurate as the spreadsheet approach, but looks 'close enough' to my eye; the real question being: are there situations where you could save on wire or OCPD if you used the spreadsheet rather than approach 6? Probably; if approach 6 gives a result of 40.6A I would be inclined to take a closer look at the results.

Like most calculations, you can do a 'rough guess' first, and if the results are below a threshold, then simply decide that no further calculation is necessary; if you use a rough and ready VD calculation that you know always gives high results, and you get 2%, then you don't need to do the accurate calculation to determine that you actually expect a voltage drop of 1.673%

-Jon
 

Mr. Bill

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
I mind as well throw my calcs in.

5 * 1200W = 6000W
6000W / 240V = 25A for AB or 25A @ -30 deg

4 * 1200W = 4800W
4800W / 240V = 20A for BC or 20A @ 90 deg

25A @ -30 deg - 20A @ 90 deg = 39.05A FLA

39.05A * 1.25 = 48.8 MCA
 

Dennis Alwon

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Location
Chapel Hill, NC
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Retired Electrical Contractor
Thanks Jon-- I do appreciate the effort in that post-- quite interesting.

There can be an amazing number of variables in the equation-- this I do not doubt. Thus it has always been my contention to get an answer that is close . If that answer tells me I am close to the limit of that wire size then I would be "smart" to go to the next wire size to be safe. This is not always a cheap method but for the residential work I do it is not that signiciant.

I wonder what others do when they are dealing with hundreds of feet of 250 MCM wire--- the next size can be quite expensive. I guess that is where the engineers come in and do their voodoo.

Thanks again
 

bob

Senior Member
Location
Alabama
winnie said:
Dennis,

IMHO there is no 'right answer' because you can always put more and more effort into closer and closer refinements of the answer.
3) iwire basically says 'treat this as a balanced three phase system, it will be close enough.' My recalculation gives 37.5A/phase.
6) bob gives an approach that drops the vector addition: calculate this by assuming a balanced three phase load for the _balanced_ portion, and then simply adding the unbalanced portion, without worrying about vectors. 12 lamps balanced gives 34.7A. The unbalanced lamp is drawing 5A, so I just add this to the legs in question, giving 39.7A.-Jon
This type of calculation becomes more difficult because the load can not be balanced as we know it should be. This problem has 13 1200 watt lamps.
The best balance job we can ACTUALLY Do is 4, 4 and 5 lamps across the 3 phases. To make the calculations simple and close enough is to assume 15 lamps instead of 13 and connect 5 lamps across each phase. So the calculation becomes 5 x 1500 w = 6000 watts. phase load = (6000/240) = 25A
Line load = 25A x 1.73 = 43.25 amps.
I believe this is what Iwire is suggesting. Iwire correct me if I am wrong.
 
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kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
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Engineer, Registered
Holy carp, said the fisherman!

I think everyone needs to step back and look at the OP and read it over carefully. The question was how would the loads divide. 13 luminaires was simply used as an example, not necessarily how many fixtures are actually being considered.

#1 Where does the 1.732 factor come in? These are 2-pole loads on a 3 phase panel. Simply divide (VA/V) and you get the current for each phase.

#2 The fact that a 3 pole breaker is being used has no effect on calculating load on each phase. It's the same as if you had 3 individual 2-pole breakers on a 3-phase panel.

#3 Size the 3-pole breaker just as you would the main on the panel.

#4 The 3-pole breaker size, once determined, will dictate how you may need to protect each luminaire, and has no bearing on the OP.

#5 This problem cannot accurately be solved using current. You must use VA to get the total VA per phase. Once you have that, you then can solve for the worst case which is maximum VA on either A, B or C, multiplied by 3, divided by 240 and 1.732 finally, multiplied by 1.25.

As follows:

View attachment 668
 

Mr. Bill

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
Dennis Alwon said:
How about explaining this part--- ie-- 25@-30deg --- how do you solve that- Is it a tangent function??

I'm using phase calcs on my calculator. The first response by Dennis got the same answer without phase calcs. I know this system is at 240V, 3-phase. But let's start with a regular 120/208V system to explain my line of thought.

120V phase-A is at /0. 120V phase-B is at /120 and 120V phase-C is at /240. Phase A - phase B = 207.846/-30

So for the 240V system I determined the current between A and B. I think the angle is at -30 but I seem to remember something about the voltage angle and current angle being different. The exact angle doesn't matter as long as the difference between phases is 120 degrees. I got the same magnitude of 39.05A when I started with 0 degrees.

Then I determined the current between B and C. This is 120 degrees out of phase with the first number.

So to find the current on phase-B I needed the difference between AB and BC. The TI calculator I have does this phase calc very easily. Or this could be graphed. The magnitude of the current comes out 39.05A.

I would say that the loads are divided with 39.05A on A, 39.05A on B, and 34.64A on C.
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
kingpb said:
#1 Where does the 1.732 factor come in? These are 2-pole loads on a 3 phase panel. Simply divide (VA/V) and you get the current for each phase.
Phase (i.e. winding) current, yes... line current, no.

#2 The fact that a 3 pole breaker is being used has no effect on calculating load on each phase. It's the same as if you had 3 individual 2-pole breakers on a 3-phase panel.
Again, phase, yes... line, no... and the sizing of the branch circuit ampacity and its OCPD is different, which is essentially the subject of the OP.

#3 Size the 3-pole breaker just as you would the main on the panel.
This NEC has whole sections regarding branch circuits and feeder sizing and protection requirements... and you're trying to sum it up with one statement. I'd say that's quite misleading.

#4 The 3-pole breaker size, once determined, will dictate how you may need to protect each luminaire, and has no bearing on the OP.
No comment.

#5 This problem cannot accurately be solved using current. You must use VA to get the total VA per phase. Once you have that, you then can solve for the worst case which is maximum VA on either A, B or C, multiplied by 3, divided by 240 and 1.732 finally, multiplied by 1.25.

As follows: [pdf attachment]
I disagree. This problem can accurately be solved using current.

In your calculations you use 1/2 the sum of connected load VA's. Using this practice in itself assumes a balanced load and is inaccurate otherwise (this is one of the problems I have with panel schedules that use this same practice).

For example, you have PhaseA = (PhaseAB + PhaseBC)/2 = 6.35 KVA. What if PhaseBC loads were turned off... PhaseA = (7.06 + 0)/2 = 3.53 KVA. So 3.53 KVA/(240V?√3) = 25.4A. I believe you will find this to be incorrect, as the current will be the full amperage of the PhaseAB loads: 7.06KVA/240V=29.42A
 

kingpb

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Engineer, Registered
Frankly, I have never seen so people intent on confusing and manipulating such a simple thing as a panel load calc. The whole concept of an "unbalanced" load on a three phase panelboard is obviously a difficult subject for many engineers and the like, especially those untrained in symmetrical components. However, the whole process is, shall we say, an excercise in futility. If it was necessary don't you think the code would have somehow addressed it?

Smart says, "For example, you have PhaseA = (PhaseAB + PhaseBC)/2 = 6.35 KVA. What if PhaseBC loads were turned off... PhaseA = (7.06 + 0)/2 = 3.53 KVA. So 3.53 KVA/(240V?√3) = 25.4A." So what? How are you going to turn Phase BC loads off, its on a 3 pole breaker, and they are either on or off with the other loads. The question by the OP is how do the loads divide up. Anyway, I'm not trying to show what the current would be at any given time, or under all switching scenarios, I am showing how you would size the breaker. If I need more detail then that, which I don't know why I ever would, I would do an unbalanced load flow analysis.

I will re-iterate: KVA, is KVA, is KVA.......... You either do calcs in per unit, or KVA/MVA. That way it does not matter what the voltage current, or pf is. It is one of the basics of understanding power engineering calculations. Unfortunately, many engineers have failed to grasp this concept, so the debate will go on and on and on and on...............................
 
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winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
kingpb,

Please don't jump on the rest of us for being stupid because we don't use exactly the same cookie-cutter spreadsheet that you do. The approach that you present is the equivalent of the one that Dennis presented early on in the thread. You do it by adding up KVA, he did it by adding up current. If you made the same assumptions about the loads, it would give exactly the same results.

The factor of 1.732 is necessary to convert line-line voltage to line-neutral voltage, and is buried in your equations, just in a different location. This is the same basic math, making the same sort of approximations.

That said, the approach that kingb presents the _clearest_ expression of this approximation, presented in a way that is simplest to explain and to remember, and the approach that I will use from now on if a tighter approximation is not needed. It is the method that I would recommend as the answer to the original post.

I have to disagree on your point that 'KVA is KVA is KVA'. The approach of adding '1/2 KVA of ab to 1/2 KVA of ac to get KVA of leg a' is itself an approximation that ignores the real phase angles of the loads. It _works_ because most loads are reasonably similar in terms of power factor and phase angle. Pick a particularly pathological example of loading, and this will not be true.

-Jon

(edited to make clear that by 'it being the clearest expression of this approximation' I mean the approach presented by kingb)
 
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kingpb

Senior Member
Location
SE USA as far as you can go
Occupation
Engineer, Registered
I'm not quite sure how what I said could have been twisted into telling anyone they are stupid; or why am I needing to be accused of using cookie cutter spreadsheets.

I use the tools appropriate for the job. That may be a piece of paper and a calculator for some things, or it may mean more intense scrutiny which may call for using a very technical engineering analysis program.

However, in my 20+ years in the electrical industry I have never needed to consider phase angles for loads on a panel board, and the fact that the code does not consider it either, IMO is a testament to it's usefulness, or lack thereof.

To those out there that don't understand unbalanced loads, don't worry about it, and don't be bullied by a few in this forum that think your doing something wrong if you can't follow their convoluted posts and pretty diagrams and graphs, a lot of it is just minutia anyway. Probably designed to detract the casual reader from the OP, and garner accolades for their self perceived, extraordinary knowledge.

As Joe Friday would say, "All we want are the facts, ma'am".
 

Mr. Bill

Senior Member
Location
Michigan
kingpb said:
To those out there that don't understand unbalanced loads, don't worry about it, and don't be bullied by a few in this forum that think your doing something wrong if you can't follow their convoluted posts and pretty diagrams and graphs, a lot of it is just minutia anyway. Probably designed to detract the casual reader from the OP, and garner accolades for their self perceived, extraordinary knowledge.

I feel the love. Group hug.
 

winnie

Senior Member
Location
Springfield, MA, USA
Occupation
Electric motor research
kingpb,

I won't argue the nuances of level of insult that can be read into someone's words. I took offence when doing so was not necessary, and for this I apologize.

To all: I would like to emphasize kingpb's point: you don't need to understand the 'perfect' equation for a given situation, nor even the best possible approximation that an engineer can dream up. You just need to know how to apply a good enough approximation for the job at hand. Proper use of a tool means knowing its limits; you need to remember that it _is_ an approximation, and you need to remember how the approximation will fail.

But you don't need to own every tool ever made; you simply need to know that more accurate tools are out there...and if you want to argue about the next level in approximations, come back here for more discussion about phase angles ;)

-Jon
 

boater bill

Senior Member
Location
Cape Coral, Fl.
If I spent so much time designing around minutae instead of "Git er done" by just using KVA, my employer would give me the opportunity to worry about minutae somewhere else.

There will always be a variable somewhere that you didn't take into consideration but you have to look at the real world situation and make reasonable allowances during the design.

Now back to my KVA load calcs...
 

hardworkingstiff

Senior Member
Location
Wilmington, NC
When it's time to "getr done", I get it done. I really enjoy learning about the different ways to calculate what's going on with the currents and voltages that often get discussed in these forums.

I sure hope Jon (winnie), Smart$, and all the others that post in these forums don't run off..... Thanks guys!
 

Smart $

Esteemed Member
Location
Ohio
kingpb said:
I use the tools appropriate for the job. ... "All we want are the facts, ma'am".
The fact is, most electricians that I know think in terms of current when sizing a breaker. This is not something likely to change anytime soon. While your KVA approach is standard for power design engineers, it is not for electricians. Any way you go about it, one has to convert to amperes somewhere in the calculations, as I don't know of any breaker rated in KVA units. Where and when that occurs is of little consequence so long as the appropriate result is achieved. Resolving a situation as posed using current calculations is as viable an alternative as any other... and the more appropriate for an electrician's frame of mind.

As for your other remarks, I need not comment and leave them as a testament of your disposition.
 
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rattus

Senior Member
Another way:

Another way:

hardworkingstiff said:
When it's time to "getr done", I get it done. I really enjoy learning about the different ways to calculate what's going on with the currents and voltages that often get discussed in these forums.

I sure hope Jon (winnie), Smart$, and all the others that post in these forums don't run off..... Thanks guys!

Stiff, here is another approach:

Compute the highest load current,

Imax = 6000W/240V = 25A

Now assume the other two loads are also 25A, then,

Iline = 1.73 x 25A = 43.3A

Then apply the derating factor,

Ibreaker = 43.3A x 1.25 = 54.1A

Correct for PF if necessary, e.g.,

Ibreaker = 54.1A/0.85 = 63.7A

A bit of overkill perhaps, but we can easily add more load to the other two phases if desired.
 
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