Single Receptacle Question

[tthh]

If you use a handle tie that isn't common trip, you preserve the other circuit if one side trips, but also force both circuits off when shutting off the breaker manually.

 

[winnie]

If you use a handle tie that isn't common trip, you preserve the other circuit if one side trips, but also force both circuits off when shutting off the breaker manually.

So you'd want two single pole breakers with a handle tie, with specific assurance that one breaker won't trip the other.

My understanding is that a handle tie is not a common trip, but that there is no protection from common tripping. Also if one breaker trips, the handle tie will require both breakers to be turned off to reset the tripped one.

Jon

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Why do you need single receptacles to feed the pumps?

In Wisconsin, we can use single receptacles to feed sump pumps as long as there is a GFCI within 3' feet of the single receptacles. That way, the sump pumps are not on a GFCI thus avoiding nuisance trips. We commonly have two sump pits in our basements. One for the drain tiles/radon fan and the other for the basement plumbing fixtures.

 

[infinity]

But isnt a MWBC one circuit so that doe not apply? I think 240.15(B)(1) is what requires the handle tie.

No, in this application it's two circuits.

 

[winnie]

As I see it: an MWBC requires a handle tie. Two circuits feeding the same yoke require a handle tie. So by several routes if you have an MWBC feeding a single yoke, you need a handle tie.

The Wisconsin exception permits non-GFCI protected _single_ receptacles feeding sump pumps as long as there is a GFCI receptacle within 3 feet. The intent is clear: have convenient GFCI receptacles and dedicated use non-GFCI receptacles, so that a casual user won't go and plug their portable devices into the non-GFCI receptacle.

@A/A Fuel GTX has a situation where two dedicated receptacles are adjacent, and used a single yoke duplex to feed these loads, presumably with the required GFCI receptacle nearby. IMHO this meets the _intent_ of the code, but unfortunately doesn't meet the letter of the code; a split duplex receptacle can never be considered two single receptacles because the definition of single receptacles requires one device per yoke.

If you had a 4" box with 2 single receptacles sitting side by side, it would meet the letter of the code. If you have the same box with a split duplex receptacle sitting sideways, it wouldn't meet the letter of the code. But as a practical matter they would have exactly the same use and present exactly the same danger.

If I were in this situation I'd tell the inspector that they are correct and request a waver on the basis of meeting the intent of the code.

-Jon

 

[A/A Fuel GTX]

Semantics..........Sometimes the code is totally OCD.

 

[infinity]

The Wisconsin exception permits non-GFCI protected _single_ receptacles feeding sump pumps as long as there is a GFCI receptacle within 3 feet. The intent is clear: have convenient GFCI receptacles and dedicated use non-GFCI receptacles, so that a casual user won't go and plug their portable devices into the non-GFCI receptacle.

I like the 3' rule for this single receptacle exception for a sump pump although the NEC would never be practicle enough to allow such a thing. The NEC should also have an exception for a single twist lock.

 

[electrofelon]

No, in this application it's two circuits.

And where is that stated? I recall some language about a MWBC can or sometimes is two circuits but I can't find it right now

 

[infinity]

And where is that stated? I recall some language about a MWBC can or sometimes is two circuits but I can't find it right now

It's two circuits because it's 2-120 volt circuits, unless this applies.

Part II. Buildings or Other Structures Supplied by a Feeder(s) or Branch Circuit(s)
225.30 Number of Supplies.
A building or other structure that is served by a branch circuit or feeder on the load side of a service disconnecting means shall be supplied by only one feeder or branch circuit unless permitted
in 225.30(A) through (E). For the purpose of this section, a multiwire branch circuit shall be considered a single circuit.

 

[electrofelon]

It's two circuits because it's 2-120 volt circuits, unless this applies.

Rob I don't follow. According to the article 100 definition it is a single circuit. Your reference in 225 seems to imply it could be two circuits sometimes, or there is ambiguity, but I am not seeing any ambiguity in the definition.

 

[infinity]

Rob I don't follow. According to the article 100 definition it is a single circuit. Your reference in 225 seems to imply it could be two circuits sometimes, or there is ambiguity, but I am not seeing any ambiguity in the definition.

You need a minimum of two 120 volt circuits for the kitchen counter receptacles, if you run a single MWBC that's two circuits.

 

[electrofelon]

You need a minimum of two 120 volt circuits for the kitchen counter receptacles, if you run a single MWBC that's two circuits.

Okay, good example, yes common sense would dictate that is two circuits in terms of accomplishing why the code wants two circuits there......but I am still not seeing any actual wording that says it is two circuits.

 

[tthh]

You need a minimum of two 120 volt circuits for the kitchen counter receptacles, if you run a single MWBC that's two circuits.

This is the perfect answer to the inspector. He can't argue both sides of this one.

 

[tthh]

So you'd want two single pole breakers with a handle tie, with specific assurance that one breaker won't trip the other.

My understanding is that a handle tie is not a common trip, but that there is no protection from common tripping. Also if one breaker trips, the handle tie will require both breakers to be turned off to reset the tripped one.

Jon

Yes. I've often wired sump and sewage ejector pumps this way. One duplex outlet, tabs removed. One outlet is the pump and the outlet is the power for the overflow alarm. Of course, GFCI rules may affect this setup nowadays. The handle tie keeps the alarm from shutting off if/when the pump eventually gives up. But, the handle tie also makes it so you have to shut them both off when you go to the panel and shut them off manually.

 

[kwired]

The Wisconsin exception permits non-GFCI protected _single_ receptacles feeding sump pumps as long as there is a GFCI receptacle within 3 feet. The intent is clear: have convenient GFCI receptacles and dedicated use non-GFCI receptacles, so that a casual user won't go and plug their portable devices into the non-GFCI receptacle.

Problem I have with that is back when NEC did allow you to have a "dedicated" single receptacle for some piece of equipment such as the sump pump example in an area that otherwise required GFCI protection for receptacles in that area is that I have seen cases where a user plugged in a three way tap, power strip, etc, into the non GFCI protected receptacle and ran cords to other items - simply because they knew that receptacle "didn't trip" like the nearby GFCI sometimes did.

I even noticed often that if you went into a place that had a regular duplex protected by a adjacent GFCI receptacle, (both in a 2 gang box) that users would avoid plugging into the GFCI whenever possible not knowing that it interrupts the "regular" receptacle and wouldn't really matter anyway.

 

[infinity]

You need a minimum of two 120 volt circuits for the kitchen counter receptacles, if you run a single MWBC that's two circuits.

This is the perfect answer to the inspector. He can't argue both sides of this one.

Yes it's two circuits but that not the argument. The requirement A/A mentioned in post #7 was that he needs two single receptacles. A split wire duplex is not by definition two single receptacles. I agree that this is nonsense.

I need two single receptacles to feed two sump pumps and I wired the duplex receptacle this way.

 

[don_resqcapt19]

In Wisconsin, we can use single receptacles to feed sump pumps as long as there is a GFCI within 3' feet of the single receptacles. That way, the sump pumps are not on a GFCI thus avoiding nuisance trips. We commonly have two sump pits in our basements. One for the drain tiles/radon fan and the other for the basement plumbing fixtures.

That is where I was going as the NEC took that exception away in the 2008 code.

 

[kwired]

Yes it's two circuits but that not the argument. The requirement A/A mentioned in post #7 was that he needs two single receptacles. A split wire duplex is not by definition two single receptacles. I agree that this is nonsense.

Maybe he didn't ask the question the right way?

'I need two receptacles each on separate overcurrent protection...." Maybe would have been better choice of wording for the question?

A duplex supplied with a multiwire branch circuit should fulfil the needs he seems to be asking about. If GFCI is needed that is a different question and challenge though it could be done with a two pole GFCI breaker.

 

[winnie]

Nope. He needs two separate single receptacles.

The reason is to provide non-GFCI protected receptacles in a location that generally requires GFCI protection. This is under a local amendment that permits non-GFCI single receptacles feeding identified single loads such as sump pumps.

The amendment requires single receptacles.

Jon

 

[kwired]

Nope. He needs two separate single receptacles.

The reason is to provide non-GFCI protected receptacles in a location that generally requires GFCI protection. This is under a local amendment that permits non-GFCI single receptacles feeding identified single loads such as sump pumps.

The amendment requires single receptacles.

Jon

Simple solution then is two gang box with two single receptacles. If already roughed in with one gang and finished off, a possible solution is a Wiremold 2 gang extension box.