Six Disconnect Rule

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Looking at 230.71 again, the matter doesn't hinge on whether they are service entrance conductors or not. It's simply that the exceptions in 230.40 are the only way to have more than six total disconnects for any service.

Otherwise the only way that you could feed (8) disconnects on separate buildings are if the utility owns the (8) sets of conductors so that it's technically (8) separate services.
 
jaggedben said:
Looking at 230.71 again, the matter doesn't hinge on whether they are service entrance conductors or not. It's simply that the exceptions in 230.40 are the only way to have more than six total disconnects for any service.

Otherwise the only way that you could feed (8) disconnects on separate buildings are if the utility owns the (8) sets of conductors so that it's technically (8) separate services.
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Right, I agree with you. After carefully rereading the sections, I retract what I said. You need a 230.40 exception to get more than 6 disconnects (unless you have multiple services). At first I thought the grouping only applied to disconnects on a SEC set, but it applies to each service OR each set of SEC. FWIW , article 547 does allow for apparently unlimited non grouped service disconnects, although a "site isolating device is required at the distribution point.
 
electrofelon said:
I disagree. Note 230.40 is for service entrance conductors. Conductors from an outside transformer to an exterior service disconnect would not be service entrance conductors, and I see no restriction on number of sets or grouping requirements for service conductors.
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Conductors from a utility transformer ahead of any OCPD are service conductors. Is there a difference between service conductors and service entrance conductors?
 
I'm still confused on this.

If I walk on the jobsite and there is an existing CT'd pad mount transformer sitting there.
and,
I dig (8) seperate trenches from that transformer to (8) separate structures and set a Fused Service Disconnect on the outside of each of the (8) individual structures.

Have violated the (6) movement rule? or not?

JAP>
 
jap said:
I'm still confused on this.

If I walk on the jobsite and there is an existing CT'd pad mount transformer sitting there.
and,
I dig (8) seperate trenches from that transformer to (8) separate structures and set a Fused Service Disconnect on the outside of each of the (8) individual structures.

Have violated the (6) movement rule? or not?

JAP>
Click to expand...
CTing has zilch to do with it. You need to make clear where the service point is. If the customer owns all the wires in the (8) separate trenches and there is no customer owned disconnect at the transformer, then yes you've violated the 6 disconnect rule.
 
jap said:
I'm still confused on this.

If I walk on the jobsite and there is an existing CT'd pad mount transformer sitting there.
and,
I dig (8) seperate trenches from that transformer to (8) separate structures and set a Fused Service Disconnect on the outside of each of the (8) individual structures.

Have violated the (6) movement rule? or not?

JAP>
Click to expand...
Yes, like jaggedben said a bit ago (and I disagreed with but take it back) you can have over six disconnects total, but you would either need to have multiple services or multiple sets of service centers conductors by one or more of the exceptions to 230.40

230.71 Maximum Number of Disconnects.
(A) General. The service disconnecting means for each serv‐
ice permitted by 230.2, or for each set of service-entrance
conductors permitted by 230.40, Exception No. 1, 3, 4, or 5,
shall consist of not more than six switches or sets of circuit
breakers, or a combination of not more than six switches and
sets of circuit breakers, mounted in a single enclosure, in a
group of separate enclosures, or in or on a switchboard or in
switchgear. There shall be not more than six sets of disconnects
per service grouped in any one location.

230.72 addresses the grouping:

230.72 Grouping of Disconnects.
(A) General. The two to six disconnects as permitted in
230.71 shall be grouped. Each disconnect shall be marked to
indicate the load served.
 
jaggedben said:
CTing has zilch to do with it. You need to make clear where the service point is. If the customer owns all the wires in the (8) separate trenches and there is no customer owned disconnect at the transformer, then yes you've violated the 6 disconnect rule.
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If the power company's responsibility stops at the transformer, and , the customer owns all the wire and service disconnects, if we were to limit the number of service disconnects at the individual structures to 6 instead of 8 then we are then code compliant even though they are at (6) different locations?

or,

Do those 6 disconnects still have to be grouped a single location?

JAP>
 
ggunn said:
Conductors from a utility transformer ahead of any OCPD are service conductors. Is there a difference between service conductors and service entrance conductors?
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Well as I said before, note the 230.40 exceptions are for SEC, so if there are NO SEC's, then that does eliminate some restrictions in theory. However with the grouping requirements still there I can't immediately think of a scenario where that will gain you anything. I am taking the day off to think about it and research it and we'll get back to you 🤓
 
ggunn said:
Conductors from a utility transformer ahead of any OCPD are service conductors. Is there a difference between service conductors and service entrance conductors?
Click to expand...
Service conductors can include utility owned conductors where service conductors start at the service point and are customer owned.
 
jap said:
If the power company's responsibility stops at the transformer, and , the customer owns all the wire and service disconnects, if we were to limit the number of service disconnects at the individual structures to 6 instead of 8 then we are then code compliant even though they are at (6) different locations?

or,

Do those 6 disconnects still have to be grouped a single location?

JAP>
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If this is residential property, you can use to 230.40 exception number three and feed as many separate buildings as you want, yes with all the service disconnects not grouped. I don't see a way to do this on non-residential property however
 
If this is residential property, you can use to 230.40 exception number three and feed as many separate buildings as you want, yes with all the service disconnects not grouped. I don't see a way to do this on non-residential property however


That's what's throwing me off.

Are we trying to disconnect everything from the Utilty Company's Transformer in 6 movements or less?'
or
Are we trying to disconnect everything from the Structure in 6 movements or less?

JAP<
 
jap said:
If the power company's responsibility stops at the transformer, and , the customer owns all the wire and service disconnects, if we were to limit the number of service disconnects at the individual structures to 6 instead of 8 then we are then code compliant even though they are at (6) different locations?

or,

Do those 6 disconnects still have to be grouped a single location?

JAP>
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1705073647599.png
Each service drop or lateral that leaves that transformer location from what I read here could still supply an unlimited number of locations, as long as a separate service is permitted for each of those locations. Separate buildings- no limits. Multi occupancy- could have separate service to each occupancy. You can not have more than six disconnects at any permitted service location though.
 
jap said:
If this is residential property, you can use to 230.40 exception number three and feed as many separate buildings as you want, yes with all the service disconnects not grouped. I don't see a way to do this on non-residential property however


That's what's throwing me off.

Are we trying to disconnect everything from the Utilty Company's Transformer in 6 movements or less?'
or
Are we trying to disconnect everything from the Structure in 6 movements or less?

JAP<
Click to expand...
I am not really sure what the code gods are trying to do here. Basically there cannot be more than six disconnects grouped in any one location. Also not really sure why we can do this with structures and residential property but not non-residential property, not sure what the thinking is there
 
kwired said:
View attachment 2569495
Each service drop or lateral that leaves that transformer location from what I read here could still supply an unlimited number of locations, as long as a separate service is permitted for each of those locations. Separate buildings- no limits. Multi occupancy- could have separate service to each occupancy. You can not have more than six disconnects at any permitted service location though.
Click to expand...

That's the way I read it also, and, in that case could I not set a service disconnect at more than 6 individual structures not grouped?

To me each lateral (regardless of how many) that leave a utility tranformer would be an individual service to a structure.

JAP>
 
jap said:
If this is residential property, you can use to 230.40 exception number three and feed as many separate buildings as you want, yes with all the service disconnects not grouped. I don't see a way to do this on non-residential property however


That's what's throwing me off.

Are we trying to disconnect everything from the Utilty Company's Transformer in 6 movements or less?'
or
Are we trying to disconnect everything from the Structure in 6 movements or less?

JAP<
Click to expand...
You can have a 10 occupant structure with a drop or lateral to each occupant. They are treated like individual buildings for the most part. Even building codes will normally have requirements for partition ratings between each occupancy. You can still have 6 disconnects per allowed service, This could mean there are a total of 60 movements to disconnect everything in that structure, and before 2020 NEC's emergency disconnect rules came along they could possibly all be inside in not so easily known/identified locations

To answer your last question we are trying to disconnect each permitted service location from it's supply with six movements or less, regardless of how much structure there may be.
 
kwired said:
You can have a 10 occupant structure with a drop or lateral to each occupant. They are treated like individual buildings for the most part. Even building codes will normally have requirements for partition ratings between each occupancy. You can still have 6 disconnects per allowed service, This could mean there are a total of 60 movements to disconnect everything in that structure, and before 2020 NEC's emergency disconnect rules came along they could possibly all be inside in not so easily known/identified locations

To answer your last question we are trying to disconnect each permitted service location from it's supply with six movements or less, regardless of how much structure there may be.
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Again that's how I see it.

So why would my 8 unit storage building scenario be a violation?

Because the 8 structures are under 1 ownership and not 8 different owners?

JAP>
 
jap said:
Again that's how I see it.

So why would my 8 unit storage building scenario be a violation?

Because the 8 structures are under 1 ownership and not 8 different owners?

JAP>
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It depends where the service point is. If there is a lateral heading to each building, then each building has its own service. If these are underground service conductors, then they are customer owned and it's all one service and the disconnects for that service need to be grouped (unless a 230.40 exception applies
 
This is exhausting.

After all this I think it's just best to meet with the power company and inspecotr and say "Hey,,, what can we do here?"

JAP>
 
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