Six Disconnect Rule

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don_resqcapt19 said:
Six disconnects for each set of service entrance conductors where there have been multiple sets of service entrance conductors installed per Exceptions 1, 3, 4, or, 5 of 230.40.
There is no limit on the number of sets of service entrance conductors that can be supplied by a single service.
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Once again, without an actual transition from a Service Conductors to "Service Entrance Conductors" we are only dealing strictly with
" Service Conductors"

So why would we apply the 6 disconnect rule for service "Entrance" conductors when we are "not" dealing with service "entrance" conductors?

Jap>
 
jap said:
Once again, without an actual transition from a Service Conductors to "Service Entrance Conductors" we are only dealing strictly with
" Service Conductors"

So why would we apply the 6 disconnect rule for service "Entrance" conductors when we are "not" dealing with service "entrance" conductors?

Jap>
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Except in the case where the underground conductors land on directly on a meter main, every service has service entrance conductors.
 
jaggedben said:
The more I think about it, the more it comes down to how you file the "paperwork". And, although the NEC doesn't care, how it will be metered (because the utility cares).

If you ask the utility for (8) seperate services to (8) different buildings at a facility, and the utility decides to install (1) utility owned transformer, to which they will gladly hook up (8) sets of customer owned underground service conductors, I don't see that contradicting the NEC. Afaik the NEC does not exactly say that multiple services can't share a service point. The utility could supply (8) services from one transformer or (4) services each from (2) transformers, or whatever, but you asked for and got (8) services.

Then when the AHJ shows up and asks you why you have (8) ungrouped disconnects you say "these are separate services, see here's all the separate sets of paperwork from the utility. They connected my (8) services to their supply, it's not my business how their supply is set up."

But if you asked the utility for (1) service to feed (8) buildings, then when the AHJ asks the question you don't have the right paperwork. Simple as that.

In reality if you ask for (1) meter for all (8) buidlings then the utility is probably going to insist you have only one service. So if you don't want to provide a central disconnect per the NEC then the way around it might be to ask the utility for (8) services, with a meter on each building, all one one account.
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If you ask for 1 meter for all 8 buildings then of course you are getting 1 service. Can still be split up across 6 disconnects.

Where does NEC say anything about 8 separate buildings not being allowed to have 8 separate services? It doesn't.

No reason you can't build say 8 homes in relatively close to proximity to each other and have a separate service to each one of them. Rent them out - each tenant has separate electric billing. 10 years later sell them individually. Now they are on 8 different properties and each has it's own service to it and still complies with codes. Where is the problem or any prohibition of supplying each with an individual service anywhere in this timeline?
 
wwhitney said:
Looking at the definition of "service", with 8 different buildings, why can't we simply say, NEC-wise, that we have 8 separate premises, and 8 separate services, regardless of meters or how the utility paperwork is filed?

Cheers, Wayne
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Okay I like that too. :)
Still comes down to 'filing paperwork'. Works as long as the AHJ agrees to treat it that way.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Six disconnects for each set of service entrance conductors where there have been multiple sets of service entrance conductors installed per Exceptions 1, 3, 4, or, 5 of 230.40.
There is no limit on the number of sets of service entrance conductors that can be supplied by a single service.
Click to expand...
We went over that. We've been discussing a scenario jap described in post #44 where none of the exceptions apply.
 
kwired said:
If you ask for 1 meter for all 8 buildings then of course you are getting 1 service. Can still be split up across 6 disconnects.

Where does NEC say anything about 8 separate buildings not being allowed to have 8 separate services? It doesn't.
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And we have never said it did. However, the NEC defines a service as serving a 'premise' not a building. So if you don't have separate individual connections to the utility for each building, then the AHJ would have to agree that they are different services on some other basis, such as that each building is a different 'premise', as Wayne suggested. The NEC gives no guidance on how to do this, so it's entirely up to the AHJ. If the AHJ decides that a 'premise' is defined by property lines, there's nothing in the NEC to contradict that.
 
This is all just academic curiosity to me, but I had always thought that there was a limit of six disconnects on the customer's side of a meter but that the POCO can connect as many meters to a transformer that they wish. Is that not correct?
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
What even permits that installation?
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My understanding of the argument, to recap, is consider you have a utility transformer with service point at the spades. Say you have 8 sets of underground service conductors to 8 buildings each with a service disconnect. Can't you call it 8 services vs one with 230.40 exception #3 installs (assume residential)? I think I have to agree with the others that the definition of service isn't really precise enough to disallow calling it 8 services. There are things that would certainly make it look like a 8 services, such as 8 different properties and/or 8 meters, but the NEC is agnostic on those issues.
 
electrofelon said:
My understanding of the argument, to recap, is consider you have a utility transformer with service point at the spades. Say you have 8 sets of underground service conductors to 8 buildings each with a service disconnect. Can't you call it 8 services vs one with 230.40 exception #3 installs (assume residential)? I think I have to agree with the others that the definition of service isn't really precise enough to disallow calling it 8 services. There are things that would certainly make it look like a 8 services, such as 8 different properties and/or 8 meters, but the NEC is agnostic on those issues.
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I just don't think there is any specific language in the NEC that permits that installation, unless you say it complies with exception #3, to 230.40, but it was stated earlier that none of the exceptions to that section apply.

If I had to inspect such an installation, I would ignore the word "building" and apply Exception #1 to 230.40....but of course the code has the word "building" in the exception.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
I just don't think there is any specific language in the NEC that permits that installation
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But if you are willing to call the 8 buildings 8 different premises, then there is nothing in the NEC that prohibits it. You would then have 8 different services, and you would have only 1 disconnect per service.

Cheers, Wayne
 
electrofelon said:
My understanding of the argument, to recap, is consider you have a utility transformer with service point at the spades. Say you have 8 sets of underground service conductors to 8 buildings each with a service disconnect. Can't you call it 8 services vs one with 230.40 exception #3 installs (assume residential)? I think I have to agree with the others that the definition of service isn't really precise enough to disallow calling it 8 services. There are things that would certainly make it look like a 8 services, such as 8 different properties and/or 8 meters, but the NEC is agnostic on those issues.
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Where is/are the utility meter(s)? Isn't the service point on the load side of a revenue meter?
 
ggunn said:
Where is/are the utility meter(s)? Isn't the service point on the load side of a revenue meter?
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I don't think it really matters for the theoretical discussion, I see no language in the NEC where the location of the meter determines anything. As I said, it would look a lot more like 8 services with a meter on each structure but there's no code language to give that any clout.
 
ggunn said:
Where is/are the utility meter(s)? Isn't the service point on the load side of a revenue meter?
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THE NEC DOESN'T CARE WHERE METERS ARE.

And while commercial might vary, I have NEVER seen a residential service with service point on the load side of a meter socket.
 
ggunn said:
This is all just academic curiosity to me, but I had always thought that there was a limit of six disconnects on the customer's side of a meter but that the POCO can connect as many meters to a transformer that they wish. Is that not correct?
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Kind of sort of correct.

If all feeding the same structure it gets more complicated though. With 8 meters there likely will end up being 8 (or more) disconnects associated with them when you can have no more than six as mains to turn off all power. Then there is multi occupancy situations where you could have one (actually up to six) at each occupancy even if more than six occupancies.
 
ggunn said:
Where is/are the utility meter(s)? Isn't the service point on the load side of a revenue meter?
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The service point is wherever the utility says it is.

For residential services in my area it as the end of the service drop. For commercial, it will be at the secondary terminals of the utility transformer.
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Except in the case where the underground conductors land on directly on a meter main, every service has service entrance conductors.
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If the conductors leave the spades of a padmount transformer and go dirrectly to the lugs of a main breaker in a switchboard, where is the trasition from "Service" conductors to "Service Entrance" conductors?

JAP>
 
wwhitney said:
But if you are willing to call the 8 buildings 8 different premises, then there is nothing in the NEC that prohibits it. You would then have 8 different services, and you would have only 1 disconnect per service.

Cheers, Wayne
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That's what I'm getting at.

JAP>
 
jap said:
If the conductors leave the spades of a padmount transformer and go dirrectly to the lugs of a main breaker in a switchboard, where is the trasition from "Service" conductors to "Service Entrance" conductors?

JAP>
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Might vary from one place to another but I'd say most the time wherever point of entry is might often be considered that transition point.

Service entrance conductors can be bus bars as well.
 
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