Sleeves

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Here's what's permitted for protection of NM cable:

334.15(B) Protection from Physical Damage. Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary by rigid metal conduit, intermediate metal conduit, electrical metallic tubing, Schedule 80 PVC conduit, Type RTRC marked with the suffix -XW, or other approved means.
Smurf would need to fall under "other approved means" to meet the NEC.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
The title of that section is "exposed work". If you cover the cells involved with drywall or paneling or plywood, that would also be considered sufficient protection and may be less expensive to implement when the cables are already installed should the inspector reject the smurf solution.
 

growler

Senior Member
It's a resi garage Growler, so rakes, shovels, etc ....i wuz thinkin' physical protection.....~RJ~

Code wise requiring physical protection is about as ambiguous as it can get.

There are inspectors that will turn this install down and others that would let it pass.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
I believe the crux of the question is whether the tube is not acceptable whereas the exposed NM would be. Does the use of the tube create a violation? I'd say no, it doesn't worsen the installation.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
I believe the crux of the question is whether the tube is not acceptable whereas the exposed NM would be. Does the use of the tube create a violation? I'd say no, it doesn't worsen the installation.
I agree it doesn't make it worse. But does it make it better? As mentioned, 334.15(B) doesn't specifically say smurf is an approved means of protection. It's open to interpretation. I hate when things are open to interpretation. Interpretation costs me money.

ETA: Smurf is much more flimsy than schedule 40 and schedule 40 is apparently not an allowed method since schedule 80 was called out.

 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Interpretation costs me money.
Kinda like having contact with the police. Every time it happens, it costs me time, freedom, money, or various combinations.

ETA: Smurf is much more flimsy than schedule 40 and schedule 40 is apparently not an allowed method since schedule 80 was called out.
Apparently sched 40 is looked at as being no tougher than NM, MC, or even EMT.
 

growler

Senior Member
I agree it doesn't make it worse. But does it make it better? As mentioned, 334.15(B) doesn't specifically say smurf is an approved means of protection. It's open to interpretation. I hate when things are open to interpretation. Interpretation costs me money.

ETA: Smurf is much more flimsy than schedule 40 and schedule 40 is apparently not an allowed method since schedule 80 was called out.

I to hate things that are open to interpretation.

If unfinished garages or unfinished basements require physical protection for wiring they could just come right out a say so. They could also state what level of protection.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Type MC can be installed exposed. It would be a better choice for garages with exposed wiring. It's interesting to note that it's much more flimsy than the schedule 80 or rigid required to protect NM.

ETA: 330.12 says not allowed where subject to physical damage so I think I'm wrong about MC being allowed.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
Is the smurf supposed to terminate in a box? On the other end not shown. I was dinged, used greenfield (sleeve) to a water heater once in a basement; so pulled it out just left rx from floor joist to rx conn. on heater.
 

sameguy

Senior Member
In a complete raceway system, yes. As a sleeve, depends if the thing it's sleeving is properly terminated independent of the sleeve.
My inspector oked the rx, but did say my short strapped greenfield with conn. and rx stapled looked better but not to code, as greenfield had to terminate in a box. Was in 1982 so code could be different now.
 

growler

Senior Member
I can hardly wait for robot electricians to take over. I can see it all now.

Danger Will Robinson, BS overload, this does not compute.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
Rereading 334.15(B) I just noticed "Cable shall be protected from physical damage where necessary"

"Where necessary" is not defined i.e. open to interpretation. I do remember recently having a chief inspector tell me that vertical exposed runs would be fine uncovered, but horizontal exposed portions i.e. "tool hangers" would need protection. He made me cover those with 1x4's.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
I can hardly wait for robot electricians to take over. I can see it all now.

Danger Will Robinson, BS overload, this does not compute.
How about robot inspectors? Built-in NEC. Extreme consistency. All interpretations recorded and used as precedent for future rulings.
 

Dennis Alwon

Moderator
Staff member
Steve, IMO that install is fine however, as others have said there will be an inspector somewhere that will turn it down. We use regular pvc not schedule 80---
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
To be code compliant and still reasonably priced, I think you would have to use metal boxes and EMT/THHN below the top plate, penetrate the top plate and terminate in a box, and then change over to NM above the top plate.

I would do a cost/benefit analysis to see if just running NM and then covering it with drywall would be cheaper. The labor on EMT installs is much higher than NM installs.
 
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growler

Senior Member
Steve, IMO that install is fine however, as others have said there will be an inspector somewhere that will turn it down. We use regular pvc not schedule 80---
How often does schedule 80 PVC ever get used for anything ?

Heck, you can use schedule 40 on the outside of a house, on a fence, on gazebo. Don't they think that conduit getting chewed on by a bulldog is a little more subject to physical hazard than installed in a garage ( everyone in Georgia has a bulldog).
 

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Say what?
Some minor league team are experimenting with ball and strike calls by automated systems. They are also trying out moving the pitcher's mound back by several feet. The point of the first is to remove inconsistencies by human umps and the other is to tilt things more in favor of the offense.

Personally, I do not think baseball needs these "improvements". I wish they hadn't brought in the DH or moved the Astros into the AL where it is.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Larry, I didn't take you for a frequent contact with police kinda guy. Are you revealing something?
No, I've mellowed over the years. Yes, really. :p Nothing serious or frequent.

An occasional traffic infringement, but not on the bike, surprisingly, and not in a while. :roll:
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
To be code compliant and still reasonably priced, I think you would have to use metal boxes and EMT/THHN below the top plate, penetrate the top plate and terminate in a box, and then change over to NM above the top plate.
There would be no reason to change it from NM to THWN, the NM is fine in EMT.

Roger
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
How often does schedule 80 PVC ever get used for anything ?

Heck, you can use schedule 40 on the outside of a house, on a fence, on gazebo. Don't they think that conduit getting chewed on by a bulldog is a little more subject to physical hazard than installed in a garage ( everyone in Georgia has a bulldog).
I use schedule 80 for meter risers (when the weatherhead stays below the roof) and also for stub-ups from trenches to above lawnmower height.
 

Coppersmith

Senior Member
There would be no reason to change it from NM to THWN, the NM is fine in EMT.
I would use 1/2" EMT. Pushing 12-2 NM complete with jacket through 1/2" EMT would be a PITA. You could probably strip the jacket since it's inside a raceway, but who wants to strip 5-8 ft of NM? (Striping the jacket is a violation I believe.) THHN would be cheaper on labor.
 
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roger

Moderator
Staff member
I would use 1/2" EMT. Pushing 12-2 NM complete with jacket through 1/2" EMT would be a PITA. You could probably strip the jacket since it's inside a raceway, but who wants to strip 5-8 ft of NM? THHN would be cheaper on labor.
You couldn't strip it, the conductors are not individually identified in NM. I don't have a problem pushing 12/2 down a straight piece of 1/2" EMT, as a matter of fact I did a job for a friend this week where I pushed 3 pieces around 90's, granted the runs were less than 10'.

Roger
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
1st, thx for all replies, good insight....:thumbsup: 2nd, returned to the job today (monday) to find weekend warrior diggers found/installed my pipe.....:roll:

So...one end is made into garage panel via 2" w/LB & frosty.... other end is under what will be a wrap around deck....so here's what i did>>>





that's 10-3 UF in 2" sch 40

WWYD???

~RJ~
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Can you withdraw the wire from the wall? If so, cut off the MA, put on an LB, and reinstall the MA in the LB into the wall.

Of course, you'd have to make the hole in the wall bigger. Hey, you asked. ;)

Who shot the mis-fired torpedo imnto the wall?
 

romex jockey

Senior Member
Can you withdraw the wire from the wall? If so, cut off the MA, put on an LB, and reinstall the MA in the LB into the wall.

Of course, you'd have to make the hole in the wall bigger. Hey, you asked. ;)
I could , but w/out a frosty it'd not last long....:happysad:

Who shot the mis-fired torpedo imnto the wall?
ah, that's a gas furnace vent....going to be a wee bit of a distraction on a deck .....:happyno:


~RJ~
 

growler

Senior Member
Can you withdraw the wire from the wall? If so, cut off the MA, put on an LB, and reinstall the MA in the LB into the wall.

Of course, you'd have to make the hole in the wall bigger. Hey, you asked. ;)
I hate to ask but why would conduit be needed at all. That's UF cable. Come up the outside of the footer and into the Garage through the bottom of that seal. Kind of where it is now except with entrance from the bottom. Cable won't be exposed to physical damage. Nail guard where you drill the seal.
 
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