Slim Canless LED Junction boxes

Beaches EE

Senior Member
Location
NE Florida
Occupation
Electrical Engineer / Facilities Manager
If it's a listed product and the instructions do not mention securing the driver, so be it. On the other hand, if the driver has mounting holes and it is accessible then why not secure it? Especially with old work, it might be more practical to enable the driver to be serviced/replaced through the fixture hole.
 

tortuga

Senior Member
Location
(44.057116, -123.103394)
Occupation
field supervisor
I ran into this before, there are remodel 'old work' situations where its is impossible to mount the box, old lathe and plaster sheetrocked over many layers and the 14/2 is 'fished' in so its not secured within 12 inches of the box either.
I have an old thread on about this here somewhere.
I'll add have installed many of these without mounting the box.
I used a metal type romex connector so at least the cable would not pull out if it got strained.

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When I discussed it with my AHJ he stated 110.3(B) can add requirements to the code but not take them away.
On new work our AHJ says "junction boxes should be installed and grounded for 'rough-in' inspection".
and when questioned about 110.3(B) "the right thing to do would be to complain to UL as its a listing mistake".

So it's non-compliant to follow manufacturers' instructions?
Its a weird situation where manufacturers cannot overwrite the code.
The fact is most AHJ's wont ever check this so it just boils down to your own companies judgement, policies / insurance.
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kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
When I discussed it with my AHJ he stated 110.3(B) can add requirements to the code but not take them away.
On new work our AHJ says "junction boxes should be installed and grounded for 'rough-in' inspection".
and when questioned about 110.3(B) "the right thing to do would be to complain to UL as its a listing mistake".
That is the opinion of your AHJ, others may not see it same way, NFPA and listing agency also may or may not see it that way.

Listing mistake? If it complies with applicable listing standard for that equipment there is no mistake, if anything the standard would need to be changed if that is a consensus of not what is desired by those that set the standards.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
On new work our AHJ says "junction boxes should be installed and grounded for 'rough-in' inspection".
and when questioned about 110.3(B) "the right thing to do would be to complain to UL as its a listing mistake".
Is it a junction box or a fixture wiring compartment?

These lights are not (only) for new work. If using in new, I would attach the wiring compartment to the joist nearest the light location, and cut the hole at trim-out and plug it in. This presumes that future replacements will still be available with at least the same connector.

In existing work, I would never bother trying to attach such a box to anything.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Is it a junction box or a fixture wiring compartment?

These lights are not (only) for new work. If using in new, I would attach the wiring compartment to the joist nearest the light location, and cut the hole at trim-out and plug it in. This presumes that future replacements will still be available with at least the same connector.

In existing work, I would never bother trying to attach such a box to anything.
In new work I rough cable in with a little excess, make good notes to know where to cut holes later. wiring compartment and the lighting component come in same package and usually will not be there at rough in time. Sort of makes it a "cut in" at the time it is installed even though it is a new project. These lights possibly do not comply if you need a fire rating on the ceiling, since they are secured to drywall and not the framing.
 

LarryFine

Master Electrician Electric Contractor Richmond VA
Location
Henrico County, VA
Occupation
Electrical Contractor
Agreed, but we're discussing securing the connection box in such a situation.

I wouldn't bother. Just make sure the NM is secured to the box properly.
 

Aledrell

Senior Member
I didn’t expect to stir up such a debate. But good to know I’m not alone thinking this is a gray area that needs addressed. I think it’s impractical to expect the the junction box to be secured. The nmb staple should serve as secured enough. LEDs will require serving eventually and I’d hate to be the one that has to service the driver if I can’t access it from below.


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infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
Not to pivot this thread but does anyone know if these fixtures can be installed in a 2x2 tile hung ceiling?
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
Not to pivot this thread but does anyone know if these fixtures can be installed in a 2x2 tile hung ceiling?
I have installed them in suspended ceiling once. Regardless of what code may allow my concern is eventual sagging of ceiling tile from weight of anything supported by the tile. The only time I did install them I did mount the connection/driver box to framing above, but it was just inches above in a dwelling basement. Plus I put a tie wire on the light apparatus itself to help keep it's weight from eventually sagging the tile.
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I recall seeing a flat metal plate that attaches to the grid with a center hole to support the fixture but I cannot find it.
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
I recall seeing a flat metal plate that attaches to the grid with a center hole to support the fixture but I cannot find it.
There are "rough in brackets" for Lithonia models and probably others, that probably would work for this purpose in suspended ceiling as well.

Never seen one other than in online catalogs though, nobody selling the luminaires is stocking them that I have looked into.
 

McLintock

Senior Member
Location
USA
Occupation
Electrician
Not to pivot this thread but does anyone know if these fixtures can be installed in a 2x2 tile hung ceiling?
In the building complex I worked at all the ceiling tiles, we never put in these types of lights. But when we had anything of weight we would cut a piece of 1/2” plywood and put it on top of the tile


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”
 

kwired

Electron manager
Location
NE Nebraska
In the building complex I worked at all the ceiling tiles, we never put in these types of lights. But when we had anything of weight we would cut a piece of 1/2” plywood and put it on top of the tile


“ shoot low boys their riding shetland ponies”
I've done that many times as well, and even attached tie wires to structural ceiling when necessary from that plywood somehow so the grid isn't bearing the weight.

These lights in question are not that heavy, but possibly heavy enough to sag the tiles over time, it doesn't take much weight at all to do that in many cases. Some tiles with nothing attached to them will sag on their own.
 

Little Bill

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Tennessee NEC:2017
Occupation
Electrician
Not to pivot this thread but does anyone know if these fixtures can be installed in a 2x2 tile hung ceiling?
I did a brand new house a year ago and used these lights for the whole basement in 2x2 tiles. I don't think the weight will be a problem since they're so light (pun not intended).
 

infinity

Moderator
Staff member
Location
New Jersey
Occupation
Journeyman Electrician
I did a brand new house a year ago and used these lights for the whole basement in 2x2 tiles. I don't think the weight will be a problem since they're so light (pun not intended).
I guess that some tiles are more robust than others so some may not sag. I'm wondering if using them that way is code complaint.
 

Aledrell

Senior Member
I don’t see why not...I’d use mc...and batwing it to a grid wire....independent grid wire for code thumpers lol yet I think that’s a dumb rule for MC cable strap. Set the j-box on the tile and call it good.


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