Smokes in a dwelling with an apt

[jxofaltrds]

I am wiring a home that will have a mother in law apartment in part of the basement. At some point it may be a rental. Home owner wants a separate meter and wants just standard smoke and carbon detectors- line voltage. I would want the apartment and the house to be tied together but I am not sure that would be compliant. I am assuming I cannot have a branch circuit from the home be connected to a device in the apartment since they are separate meters. Any thoughts.

I assume that I don't have to tie them together but I would surely want it in my home. Is the only way to do this thru a LV system?

They must be wired together if this is considered a single family:

Now this is Ohio's code but it is ICC based.

314.3 Location. Smoke alarms shall be installed in the following locations:
1. In each sleeping room.
2. Outside each separate sleeping area in the immediate vicinity of the
sleeping rooms. Note (by me): the use of sleeping area and sleeping rooms.
3. On each additional story of the dwelling, including basements and
habitable attics but not including crawl spaces and uninhabitable attics. In
dwellings or dwelling units with split levels and without an intervening
door between the adjacent levels, a smoke alarm installed on the upper
level shall suffice for the adjacent lower level provided that the lower level
is less than one full story below the upper level.

When more than one smoke alarm is required to be installed within an individual
dwelling unit the alarm devices shall be interconnected in such a manner that the
actuation of one alarm will activate all of the alarms in the individual unit.

 

[electrofelon]

They must be wired together if this is considered a single family:
.

Lots of "must be's, can be's, cannot be's" getting thrown around. Personally I will stick to the NEC, I think throwing around building code publications is a bit futile as what is relevant to one guy isnt to the next. The only NEC issue I can think of besides 240.21(B) that was mentioned, is 210.25(A) and (B) which can make it sticky. There is that dreaded word "occupancy" that is not defined.

 

[kwired]

Lots of "must be's, can be's, cannot be's" getting thrown around. Personally I will stick to the NEC, I think throwing around building code publications is a bit futile as what is relevant to one guy isnt to the next. The only NEC issue I can think of besides 240.21(B) that was mentioned, is 210.25(A) and (B) which can make it sticky. There is that dreaded word "occupancy" that is not defined.

The fact that this forum is primarily an NEC forum means most conversation evolves around NEC, but it is also a general trade forum, and at least the mentioning of other codes or possible local amendments that may apply to a situation is certainly not out of line. Only the OP or at least someone from the same area will know the local rules better than most people that participate in the forum, we have participants here that have little knowledge of NEC at all, are in countries that don't use the NEC, etc. Their input is still pretty valuable in some cases, but usually is on topics not focused primarily on codes.

The OP needs to take all that information and determine what applies to him and what doesn't and maybe even have a discussion with the AHJ, before moving on with his installation.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Lots of "must be's, can be's, cannot be's" getting thrown around. Personally I will stick to the NEC, I think throwing around building code publications is a bit futile as what is relevant to one guy isnt to the next. The only NEC issue I can think of besides 240.21(B) that was mentioned, is 210.25(A) and (B) which can make it sticky. There is that dreaded word "occupancy" that is not defined.

Article 100

Scope. This article contains only those definitions essential
to the proper application of this Code. It is not intended to
include commonly defined general terms or commonly defined
technical terms from related codes and standards. In
general, only those terms that are used in two or more
articles are defined in Article 100.

What is wrong with quoting NFPA 72?

210.12(A)

Informational Note No. 2: See 11.6.3(5) of NFPA 72-
2010, National Fire Alarm and Signaling Code, for information
related to secondary power supply requirements for
smoke alarms installed in dwelling units.

The fact that this forum is primarily an NEC forum means most conversation evolves around NEC, but it is also a general trade forum, and at least the mentioning of other codes or possible local amendments that may apply to a situation is certainly not out of line. Only the OP or at least someone from the same area will know the local rules better than most people that participate in the forum, we have participants here that have little knowledge of NEC at all, are in countries that don't use the NEC, etc. Their input is still pretty valuable in some cases, but usually is on topics not focused primarily on codes.

The OP needs to take all that information and determine what applies to him and what doesn't and maybe even have a discussion with the AHJ, before moving on with his installation.

TY.

 

[grizwald]

I am wiring a home that will have a mother in law apartment in part of the basement. At some point it may be a rental. Home owner wants a separate meter and wants just standard smoke and carbon detectors- line voltage. I would want the apartment and the house to be tied together but I am not sure that would be compliant. I am assuming I cannot have a branch circuit from the home be connected to a device in the apartment since they are separate meters. Any thoughts.

I assume that I don't have to tie them together but I would surely want it in my home. Is the only way to do this thru a LV system?

Separate meter??? You can't feed two units off of the same meter. Check with the fire department...they will want to know if a different meter is feeding a particular unit. If that unit is fed by two meters. How would they know what to shut off, if they respond to a call

 

[kwired]

Separate meter??? You can't feed two units off of the same meter. Check with the fire department...they will want to know if a different meter is feeding a particular unit. If that unit is fed by two meters. How would they know what to shut off, if they respond to a call

A meter is not a disconnecting means, it is simply the point where POCO measures what was used. You could have multiple meters, a single meter, or even no meter at all. No meter at all does happen, usually for fixed billing situations like roadway lighting or signs, but there could be other applications.

You could even have multiple meters that are not POCO meters for anything you want to monitor usage of for any reason.

Then there are CT type meters where pulling the meter will not interrupt power.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Article 210.25 (A) seems to disallow the smokes being fed from one apt to the next.

210.25 Branch Circuits in Buildings with More Than
One Occupancy.
(A) Dwelling Unit Branch Circuits. Branch circuits in
each dwelling unit shall supply only loads within that dwelling
unit or loads associated only with that dwelling unit.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

This is really a different question of whether an apt can be fed from 2 meters.

 

[jxofaltrds]

This is really a different question of whether an apt can be fed from 2 meters.

Are you asking two cash registers and two disconnects outside? I've got to think on that one.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

Are you asking two cash registers and two disconnects outside? I've got to think on that one.

My question was not about 2 meters feeding one apt- that's a different thread running now-- but rather if the circuit for the smokes can be tied together in the 2 apts if they are separately metered. IMO. 210.25(A) will not allow that

 

[kwired]

My question was not about 2 meters feeding one apt- that's a different thread running now-- but rather if the circuit for the smokes can be tied together in the 2 apts if they are separately metered. IMO. 210.25(A) will not allow that

It has nothing to do with meters, a branch circuit from one unit can not feed equipment in or associated with the other unit, there may not even be any meters and the rule still applies.

 

[jxofaltrds]

My question was not about 2 meters feeding one apt- that's a different thread running now-- but rather if the circuit for the smokes can be tied together in the 2 apts if they are separately metered. IMO. 210.25(A) will not allow that

It has nothing to do with meters, a branch circuit from one unit can not feed equipment in or associated with the other unit, there may not even be any meters and the rule still applies.

Agreed.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It has nothing to do with meters, a branch circuit from one unit can not feed equipment in or associated with the other unit, there may not even be any meters and the rule still applies.

Yes, that is true but some people have a grandparent unit that is not a separate apartment. I was making it clear that there may be 2 meters feeding the 2 dwelling areas. The question begs to be answered-- when are they two separate units???? This becomes a building code issue

The way I left it was for now it will be a grandparents apt with access to the entire house-- I see no problem feeding the smokes in this case, but at some point it may be a separate apt and meter so I made plans so the smokes will be wired separately at that time. I will make the apt smokes the end of the line and pull a future power supply in the box for when the unit gets changed over

 

[cadpoint]

NC Fire code

NC Fire code

Page 65 Chapter 9 Fire protection systems
page 81 fire alarm system defination
page 95 section 907 Fire alarm and detection systems
Page 98 907.2.10.3 interconnection

http://policies.ncsu.edu/sites/default/files/general/NC_FIRE35.pdf

Default to NFPA 72

 

[kwired]

Yes, that is true but some people have a grandparent unit that is not a separate apartment. I was making it clear that there may be 2 meters feeding the 2 dwelling areas. The question begs to be answered-- when are they two separate units???? This becomes a building code issue

The way I left it was for now it will be a grandparents apt with access to the entire house-- I see no problem feeding the smokes in this case, but at some point it may be a separate apt and meter so I made plans so the smokes will be wired separately at that time. I will make the apt smokes the end of the line and pull a future power supply in the box for when the unit gets changed over

Yes it is also possible to have multiple meters for a single occupancy. There must still be no more than six service disconnecting means no matter how many meters there are.

My point is disregard the meter(s) and figure out how many separate occupancies there actually is and if more than one do not supply equipment in one unit from another.

 

[jxofaltrds]

Yes, that is true but some people have a grandparent unit that is not a separate apartment. I was making it clear that there may be 2 meters feeding the 2 dwelling areas. The question begs to be answered-- when are they two separate units???? This becomes a building code issue

The way I left it was for now it will be a grandparents apt with access to the entire house-- I see no problem feeding the smokes in this case, but at some point it may be a separate apt and meter so I made plans so the smokes will be wired separately at that time. I will make the apt smokes the end of the line and pull a future power supply in the box for when the unit gets changed over

It is a single family so if I was inspecting it parallel paths is what would concern me.

To my knowledge the NEC does not address 'sub' meters. Kinda where you are going in a sense. Correct?

A placard that said smokes for the entire home are feed from this panel, might not be a bad idea. Might help the AHJ or whoever understand years down the road. And something at the other end, the future feed, explaining future feed for smokes.

 

[grizwald]

Yes it is also possible to have multiple meters for a single occupancy. There must still be no more than six service disconnecting means no matter how many meters there are.

My point is disregard the meter(s) and figure out how many separate occupancies there actually is and if more than one do not supply equipment in one unit from another.

Sorry to derail the thread; that wasn't my intension. I was trying to point out that, if this becomes a legal unit with it's own address and service/meter/disconnect...the smokes can't be fed from another unit/address/meter...that's all I was getting at. I'll work on my wording and clarification :dunce:

 

[kwired]

Sorry to derail the thread; that wasn't my intension. I was trying to point out that, if this becomes a legal unit with it's own address and service/meter/disconnect...the smokes can't be fed from another unit/address/meter...that's all I was getting at. I'll work on my wording and clarification :dunce:

That is OK. There seem to be many that get hung up on meters, separate occupancies, and any relationship between them. Fact is the meter doesn't designate a separate occupancy, is not a disconnecting means, does not designate how many services there are or may not even be a part of service equipment.

There are many single occupancies out there with multiple meters for various reasons, there are many multi-occupancy buildings with only a single meter for all occupants. The meter is nothing but a point in the system that allows for a measurement device to be inserted, and in the case of CT metering - the meter isn't really even inserted into the circuit being measured.

This kind of information needs mentioned from time to time for those that can't get past any confusion. Now there are utilities with their own rules that like to muddy the water some, but in general if the utility installs it, they are exempt from NEC requirements, but if the owner or a contractor installs it, POCO can have their rules, but it still needs to meet NEC also or the AHJ is not going to pass it.

 

[Dennis Alwon]

It is a single family so if I was inspecting it parallel paths is what would concern me.

What parallel paths? The wire from the apt will not be connected unless the apt becomes a separately metered place-- then it will only energize the smokes in the apt and the houses ones will be separate.

Again this is a large home with a parents apt in the basement but there is a door to access the rest of the house. At some point they will or may be 2 separate units-- I see it as one as it is now.

To my knowledge the NEC does not address 'sub' meters. Kinda where you are going in a sense. Correct?

I never heard the term sub meter and that is not what we have here-- one meter but one day each area will be metered thru the power company.

 

[jxofaltrds]

What parallel paths? The wire from the apt will not be connected unless the apt becomes a separately metered place-- then it will only energize the smokes in the apt and the houses ones will be separate.

Again this is a large home with a parents apt in the basement but there is a door to access the rest of the house. At some point they will or may be 2 separate units-- I see it as one as it is now.

I never heard the term sub meter and that is not what we have here-- one meter but one day each area will be metered thru the power company.

Unless - I was trying to say there should be no problem.

I am wiring a home that will have a mother in law apartment in part of the basement. At some point it may be a rental. Home owner wants a separate meter and wants just standard smoke and carbon detectors- line voltage. I would want the apartment and the house to be tied together but I am not sure that would be compliant. I am assuming I cannot have a branch circuit from the home be connected to a device in the apartment since they are separate meters. Any thoughts.

I assume that I don't have to tie them together but I would surely want it in my home. Is the only way to do this thru a LV system?

You said separate meter.