Soldered splices

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mdshunk

mdshunk

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Was approached by a new builder to our area that builds "McMansions" of sorts. He reports that they require soldered splices. I've never heard of such in this day and age, but whatever the customer wants. In order to properly bid the prints, it would be helpful to know how much time this adds to each hole. Anyone presently solder splices? How much time does it add? Any tips/products to speed the process in regard to insulating the completed splice? (this customer also requires that all devices and fixtures be pigtailed, which adds to the time)
 
I thought all splices had to be of the mechanical means. Maybe it just says it in some specs. But I can't see doing any solder splices for fear of a heated then loose connection. Sounds like the guy is an old, and I do mean old timer who wants to remember things back in the old days. Bck in the knob and tubing era. Am I right on this guys?
 
dduffee260 said:
I thought all splices had to be of the mechanical means.
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What it says is that soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secured without solder and then soldered.
 
mdshunk said:
Was approached by a new builder to our area that builds "McMansions" of sorts. He reports that they require soldered splices. I've never heard of such in this day and age, but whatever the customer wants. In order to properly bid the prints, it would be helpful to know how much time this adds to each hole. Anyone presently solder splices? How much time does it add? Any tips/products to speed the process in regard to insulating the completed splice? (this customer also requires that all devices and fixtures be pigtailed, which adds to the time)
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Tell this nut that he's about 70 years too late. My grandfather soldered splices back in the 30's and 40's.
 
j_erickson said:
What it says is that soldered splices shall first be spliced or joined so as to be mechanically and electrically secured without solder and then soldered.
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They normally accomplish that by crimping on a copper crimp sleeve before soldering. That little bit I know. I just didn't know anyone still did this, and it's even more surprising to get the request from a GC. They normally just want fancy lights and crap, and don't stick their nose into how you actually do the work too much.
 
infinity said:
Tell this nut that he's about 70 years too late. My grandfather soldered splices back in the 30's and 40's.
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Apparently this is being done on all his other work in other market areas. Who am I to balk. Whatever he wants to pay for. Matter of fact, Trevor, he builds in Jersey also. I might have to do a few practice splices at the shop and see how long it takes me.
 
Back to OP, I don't have any tips, as I've never soldered wiring in a house. Personally I'd try to talk the builder out of soldering as I see no benefit to it. I'm on the fence as to whether I'd even do a house with soldered splices. On one hand, if he's paying, great. Just keep him happy. On the other, I don't feel it's the best way to splice. The problem is that the splice may be fine, but insulation is a problem. Do you just tape it? I rewired a house due to the tape coming off of an old soldered splice which caused an arc, which caused a fire. Granted the house was about 30 years old. I guess it would depend on how badly I wanted or needed the work. I prefer my builders to trust my opinion on the best methods.
 
I'd see if I could get the builder to give me enough information (an address would do) to find the electrician that wired his last house. If you talked to them (especially if they are in another market) I bet you could learn a lot....... about the builder too.
 
I still do soldered splices at times. I use a butane fired soldering iron, and for the small amount I do, it works fine. If I were going to do a LOT of them, I'd get a bigger unit that can really heat up fast.

It doesn't take much time to do the actuall soldering. It's the prep and cleanup time that kills you. I always clean the wire ends with emery cloth, even with new wire, then tin them (put a light coat of solder on each end), then twist together, then solder them. After cool, I clean with a damp rag to get as much flux off as possible, then cap with a standard wire nut.

The only time I do this is for knob and tube repair and for the odd customer who insists that I solder connections because that's the way all of the original connections are done in his house. I also still solder some connections in industrial work when repairing old contol systems, etc.

If I had to guess, I'd say it probably wouldn't take that long to do if you set up correctly with all equipment. Do prep work on a bunch of joints at one time, solder, clean, cap, done. Add say 3 min per box? Doing a test at home is a good idea. Just remember though, it's much more difficult doing this overhead off of a ladder, or scrunched over on your knees or under a sink in the kitchen.

A good solder joint is actually automatic if the joint is clean enough, and hot enough. Of course, rosin core solder is used instead of acid core.

Hope this helps.

John
 
Wow - are sure this isn't some ancient boiler-plate item? I would fire off an RFI about it, he may just be seeing if you know how to read. If not I would boost up the price quite a bit, and tell him so. "It can be done - but it's gonna cost ya...." Also I think hardworking stiff had some great advice... Maybe you want to loose this bid, he might have some other wacko trash to pull. Like zero tolorance placements, and he'll be there with a micrometer to check - or some other anal garbage. But then again - he just might be some hack who has no clue on current standards - it might be his first job, or left over from it.... (IN THE 30'S!)

If you do take it, I would suggest that you add a significant amount. This jerk wants soldered splices - make him pay for it! (15+ minutes an opening, ladder time, back and forth, double handling, Catered lunch :rolleyes: etc. Or, T&M.) Play his game! If he wants it, there will have to be stipulations and specific conditions - IN CONTRACT! And invest on long sleeved shirts for all of your guys, and some 1200 watt irons for each and charge that to the job as well. Wire as normal - with twisted splices and a loose wire nut - nothing rolled in - test every thing! Demand that no finish be installed before the soldering begins and is finished, with a notice of non-responcability if any finished material is on the job until after soldering is complete, and that no rock can comence until it does. Then send the cheap guys around to pull the wire nuts and solder the splices and roll in, and close boxes and rings. Have it in contract that any changes after that will require replacement of the entire cable length of any resoldered splice, which may require the entire circuit length, and and all branches of same. (Of course total non-responability of any removal of any material to do so, or replacement of same.)

He's invited you to dance.... Let's see if he can TANGO!

You just have to no how to play his game IMO.
 
Oh.... I got carried away....

This is a K&T thing of mine.... But applicable - just twisted pig-tail splices as normal in the box, 1200w iron, make sure to clean any flux. Wet rag while still hot works good, but a workmans comp issue for burns..... If you leave the flux - it will eat the splice - acid or not - they are all corrosive......

http://www.markhellerelectric.com/wusplice.pdf
 
e57, why even waste the time to type all of that up. Just tell the guy thanks, but you are not interested, too busy, etc. Forget all the jibberish covering your bases mumbo jumbo on a job like this. There are too many good paying well written jobs to take a chance on things like this.
 
e57 said:
Wow - are sure this isn't some ancient boiler-plate item? I would fire off an RFI about it, he may just be seeing if you know how to read.
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No, we actually had a conversation about it. He is able to present this to the potential buyers as one feature that makes his homes superior to others. Whether this is actually true or not is another story. Perception is reality; sell the sizzle not the steak; etc., etc.

I'm actually anxious to do a solder job just to say I did one (or several). Kinda like paying homage to the electricians of yesteryear. Reminds me of a saying a plumber once told me:


A hundred years from now, they will gaze upon my work and marvel at my skills but never know my name. And that will be good enough for me. -Dan Holohan.
 
Here is the point:

Here is the point:

stickboy1375 said:
I don't see the point in solder... but hey have FUN!!! :)
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I would think that the solder would lower the resistance of the joint a bit, make it stronger, and increase reliability since the copper is now tinned which protects it from corrosion. If I wired my own house, I think I would solder the joints and use pigtails for a first class job. Of course my time isn't worth much.

Still, I think it is mainly a selling point with these high dollar houses.
 
Marc,
They normally accomplish that by crimping on a copper crimp sleeve before soldering.
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I have never seen a crimp on a soldered splice. The ones I have come across were on solid wire, with the wire tightly twisted for an inch or so and then soldered. If there were a lot of them to do, you would do all of the twisting leaving the ends out of the box and then come back through with a solder dip pot and solder them. Then you went back through one more time taping then up.
Don
 
rattus,
I would think that the solder would lower the resistance of the joint a bit, make it stronger, and increase reliability since the copper is now tinned which protects it from corrosion.
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Actually the resistance goes up a bit. The solder completly covers the copper and has a higher resistance than does a solid copper to copper contact.
Don
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Marc, I have never seen a crimp on a soldered splice. Don
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I'd say that 95% of the one's I've seen do not feature this crimp (20's, 30's, 40's). The one's that I have seen with a crimp sleeve are one's that were done on conductors with early thermoplastic jacketed NM cable. This makes me think that it was a mid to late 60's phenomenon. During that period of time, pretty much everyone was on board with twist-on wire nuts, with some still using the set screw type wire nuts. I suspect that it was the old-timers at the tail end of their careers, during the late 60's, that were still soldering plastic jacketed NM cable splices.

Honestly, I have no idea how you could make a soldered connection compliant today without using a crimp sleeve. If you use a wire nut after solder, that creates a 110.3(B) violation because no wire nut white paper I've ever collected gives a provision for such use. I'lll have to rattle Joe Tedesco. He seems to have lots of older reference material on this sort of stuff.
 
The conductors need to get hot enough first before applying the solder to avoid making a "cold" joint, which will definately cause a higher resistance joint. Old timer sparky's did a lot of the splice joints up in the fixtures, using legs to the switches. They would use a ladle to hold melted solder from a small furnace and climb up ladders to dip the pre-twisted and heated wires in the ladle. When I was really little I watched my dad doing some. Once he let me go up the ladder and dip, but if I remember this right, he held the ladle, I was just sorta up the ladder with him that one time. (tyke)
 
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