Soldered splices

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Consider running this customer requirement by the AHJ (not just the underling inspector, but the actual AHJ).

Holy cow. You install all that stuff and then get red-flagged, have to remove it, and still don't get paid by the builder because you did not meet the contract specifications.

Mabe this builder is $marter than you think!
 
mdshunk said:
~feature that makes his homes superior ~
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Superior in cost alone maybe, an improperly soldered joint is more chance of joint and insulation breakdown, without any real added benifit IMO. Granted I have seen 100 year old splices some soldered, some not.

Have you ever had to work on something where the conductors were soldered inside the box? The next electrician who has to work in that building will be cursing your name - or laughing too hard to do so. If there ever is a problem, it will be murder to troubleshoot because it will be hard to isolate things by opening splices. There will be loss in conductor length, because they will have to cut your handy work off.

If you want it, I wish you luck....

As for the quote - I usually sign mine. (Inside the panel cover, sometimes I leave plans too.)
 
Pappysparks

Pappysparks

I would be concerened about what the heat needed to solder would do to the insulation on the wires close to the splice
 
Marc,
Honestly, I have no idea how you could make a soldered connection compliant today without using a crimp sleeve.
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It is my opinion that tightly twisted solid wire is mechanically and electrically secure without solder.
Don
 
macmikeman,
The conductors need to get hot enough first before applying the solder to avoid making a "cold" joint, which will definately cause a higher resistance joint.
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While a cold joint will make the resistance even higher, the risistance of tin and lead are high than that of copper. Where the joint is correctly made all of the copper will be coated with solder and there will no longer be any copper to copper contact. The resistance of the soldered joint will be slightly higher after it is soldered than before it is soldered. As far as the wire being hot enough before applying the solder, that applies when using stick or wire solder. The wires are not perheated when you use a dip pot. There is enough mass of liquid solder in the dip pot to heat the wires to make a good joint.
I also "helped" my dad do some when I was about 5. He was building our new house at the time. A couple of years ago, I was making a change for my mom and found one junction box where he had forgotten to go back and tape and tuck the joints...the bare soldered joints had been sticking out of the box since the mid 50s.
Don
 
At least one source states, "Because solderless connectors (such as plastic end caps) are time-saving and easy to use. the electrician no longer needs to solder each and every splice. It not only takes less time to make a solderless connection but also requires less skill. However. soldering is still the most reliable method of joining pieces of wire, and every electrician should learn how to solder."

Found that reference, which is publicly available and has the correct nomenclature. I do not know how the 'most reliable' conclusion was reached.

edit: add

Don, your story is great. I wonder whether there wasn't a job left for 'the help' to find and 'help correct,' either knowingly or unconsciously.
 
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The resistance of the soldered joint is lower because the solder covers 100% of the wire while the wire nut and conductors are in conduct over only a small area.

The total area of the soldered connection is probably 10 to 100 times the cross section of the wire.

The solder prevents oxidation of the copper surfaces at the junction.

The resistance is virtually zero in either case, but a good soldered joint is more resistant to degradation and loosening.
 
Bob,
The resistance of the soldered joint is lower because the solder covers 100% of the wire while the wire nut and conductors are in conduct over only a small area.
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There is no more contact area when you solder the joint that when you twist the joint. The spring in the wire nut doesn't make the electrical connection...it only holds the wires tightly together. If you are comparing a soldered joint to a currently used wire nut, the soldered joint will likely have more contact area, and a lower resistance. However if you are comparing the twisted joint, before and after the application of solder, the twisted joing without the solder will have the lower resistance...note that we are talking microhms here.
Don
 
Just my 2 cents:

When working with elect circuit boards: All the solder training was about covering the dissimilar metals with solder to prevent oxidation.
All connections were to be mechanically sound prior to soldering.

Seems like soldering wire connections in a house will cover the copper wires...but will the bare copper wires oxidize any faster than the solder? Aren't the contact points on properly twisted wires "gas tight"?
 
don_resqcapt19 said:
Bob,

There is no more contact area when you solder the joint that when you twist the joint. The spring in the wire nut doesn't make the electrical connection...it only holds the wires tightly together. If you are comparing a soldered joint to a currently used wire nut, the soldered joint will likely have more contact area, and a lower resistance. However if you are comparing the twisted joint, before and after the application of solder, the twisted joing without the solder will have the lower resistance...note that we are talking microhms here.
Don
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I have to disagree here. I would agree if the conductors had flat surfaces and were either pre-tinned or were not mechanically mated through pressure, where post-mate soldering would penetrate the joint.

However, that is not the case. We are talking about round conductors. Whether they are straight, held in contact side by side, or twisted together, the contact "area" is only a line?which has no area. Twisting does not increase the contact "area" for the same length of wire. In fact it reduces the "line" length. Twisting does however provide additional mechanical strength to the joint.

When soldered together, the effective contact area is increased due to wicking of the solder. Not sure if wicking is the proper term here, but I'm refering to how solder fills in between nearby surfaces. The first of the following images depicts a pair of twisted, solid, and round copper conductors with the end sliced off and an end view to the right. Note how little of the conductors are actually in contact. Compare this to the depiction in the second image of those conductors after being soldered. Yes, solder has a higher resistivity than copper, but the increased area of conductance reduces the effective resistance to less than what it was.

View attachment 241

View attachment 242
 
Smart, the copper compresses somewhat when twisted, and this provides the contact area. If there were zero contact area, the resistance would be infinite. It is logical that solder would increase the contact area and therefore reduce the resistance, but the change would be small. I agree that tinning the wires would reduce the possibility of corrosion.
 
Smart $ said:
Twisting does not increase the contact "area" for the same length of wire. In fact it reduces the "line" length.
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You will have to explain to me how the line gets shorter when the conductors are twisted.
 
Speaking from the point of view of a customer, if I had more money than sense and wanted to 'exceed the NEC', there are many things that I would specify, and soldering connections is _not_ one of them.

The below are not in order of priority (nor reasonableness!)

I would specify metallic wiring methods, eg. EMT or MC cable.

I would specify increased size for all circuits, limiting voltage drop to 2% at full circuit trip rating at the furthest load.

I would specify design for future expansion, including the use of wire chases in the structure to ease adding new circuits, or the use of conduit wiring methods.

I would specify much larger junction and device boxes. For example I might specify a minimum box volume of twice the NEC requirements.

I would specify lighting circuits separate from receptacle circuits.

I would specify three way switching for bedroom lighting, with one switch by the door, and one by the bed.

I would specify 'spec grade' devices for all switches and receptacles.

I would specify an inspection of each and every device and connection, to be performed by another electrician (could be a different electrician from the same company), in addition to the AHJ inspection. This would include continuity and isolation checks to confirm that no circuits are crossed and no neutrals are tied to ground.

I would specify copper service entrance conductors and feeders.

I would specify separate circuits for all 'media centers' 'computer work stations',etc.

I would specify a _separate_ small appliance branch circuits for each 48" of counter space.

I would specify that no GFCI feed downstream receptacles, except adjacent receptacles in a 'quad' arrangement.

I would specify that no 'quickwire style' push in splices or terminations be used.

I would specify the use of 'set screw' wire nuts.

I would specify the use of traceable torque measuring tools for all splices.

I would specify the use of a copper CEE for the grounding electrode in addition to all other required grounding and bonding.

I would specify bonding of all metalling plumbing, piping, steel studs, etc, even if such is not likely to be energized.

I don't believe that any of these things are _required_, and that only some of these things are good design (good design meaning 'better' and 'better enough to be worth the money'), but that if I were trying to sell a 'better than NEC' electrical system, I'd want things from the above list, and not irreversible splices!

P.S. Does ERICO make a mold for #12 Cu?

-Jon
 
georgestolz said:
Can I see a show of hands of who here has soldered wires before?

I, for one, have not.
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In general or specifically building wiring?



Building wiring......No, never.

Don't plan to either.

Jon's list seems pretty reasonable and defiantly belongs ahead of solder.
 
georgestolz said:
Can I see a show of hands of who here has soldered wires before?
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I have not, either.

I must admit that I am very surprised by all the impassioned responses to what I thought would be a simple inquiry. Some people took my question about how much time a splice would take as their invitation to comment on whether it is even a good idea or not. I wasn't particularly interested in that information, but I understand a man's basic need to get things off his chest. It's a builder request... not my idea. Whatever he wants to sell, I wil do if it's legal (except backstabbing)
 
mdshunk said:
Some people took my question about how much time a splice would take as their invitation to comment on whether it is even a good idea or not. I wasn't particularly interested in that information,
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icon10.gif
well you get the extra info for free....


You invited comment as soon as you posted on a forum.
 
mdshunk said:
Some people took my question about how much time a splice would take as their invitation to comment on whether it is even a good idea or not. I wasn't particularly interested in that information, but I understand a man's basic need to get things off his chest.
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Marc, LMAO, that was funny. :D
 
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