Source for cable con 15kv CN URD

[electrofelon]

Anyone have a source for 15kv concentric neutral primary in conduit? Should be an off the shelf common stock item. Thanks.

 

[ptonsparky]

Menards probably has common stuff like that....

 

[electrofelon]

Menards probably has common stuff like that....

What is Menards?

 

[paulengr]

Anyone have a source for 15kv concentric neutral primary in conduit? Should be an off the shelf common stock item. Thanks.

Call Okonite. They make it and can hook you up with a distributor. If you are on good terms with a local rural utility (EMC) often they have access to the RUS system and may be willing to sell you some. Wesco has a utility division and probably stockpiles some. The key on something like that is that you need to be talking to the utility distributors instead of the commercial/industrial ones.

Concentric wound neutrals are not nearly as popular as foil or braided shields or as much as it once was so don’t expect to find it in inventory. Every project I ever did with it involved ordering a special run and waiting in line to get it made at the cable plant. You may be looking at a special run too so 10-12 weeks delivery.

 

[kwired]

Supply house that regularly sells to utility companies or other MV/HV contractors? Supply house that primarily sells to LV contractors may or may not have access to this but likely doesn't keep it in stock.

There are some supply companies that specialize in mostly wire and cable - those places may stock it. Unless they are right in your vicinity you still need to have it shipped to you or go pick it up.

 

[electrofelon]

Call Okonite. They make it and can hook you up with a distributor. If you are on good terms with a local rural utility (EMC) often they have access to the RUS system and may be willing to sell you some. Wesco has a utility division and probably stockpiles some. The key on something like that is that you need to be talking to the utility distributors instead of the commercial/industrial ones.

Concentric wound neutrals are not nearly as popular as foil or braided shields or as much as it once was so don’t expect to find it in inventory. Every project I ever did with it involved ordering a special run and waiting in line to get it made at the cable plant. You may be looking at a special run too so 10-12 weeks delivery.

Yeah I think I saw okonite had it as a stock item. I'll try and find a distributor.

Here all POCOs seem to use CN. The Poco here lets us buy and run a customer owned primary so it's a stock item at many supply houses - just not in conduit which I want for this job.

 

[blueheels2]

We used to buy all this stuff through Eck/Capital Electric (company I used to work for did a small amount of MV) But with the supply chain as jacked up as it is now who knows what they have.

 

[yesterlectric]

Prysmian and Okonite are some well known MV cable manufacturers. You would have to ask them who the reps/distributors are for their product.

Also if it's on a customer premises you need to consider if the MV cable must be UL listed. If you can't find it with a UL listing and your AHJ is willing you may be able to exempt per 90.2C. However the challenge with that is that on many jobs big enough to have customer owned medium voltage systems, the definition of AHJ is hard to know. Arguably, it could be either one or a combination of the owner's engineer, the bank, the insurance company, the third party inspection engineer the owner hired after the project is almost done, or the inspector. The result can be people not feeling comfortable making a special permission call because they are afraid one other party will later come and question their decision.

UL Listed MV cable is more readily available than it used to be, thanks to more distributed generation but still not all of it is UL listed. A lot of times you used to get a cutsheet that says "UL Listing available upon request." What's the difference? Well, if you ordered it with UL listing, it would come with a longer lead time and markup because they custom make the same cable, but print UL on it and pay a fee to UL for printing it. I got a letter from a manufacturer one time saying there's no difference.

 

[electrofelon]

Prysmian and Okonite are some well known MV cable manufacturers. You would have to ask them who the reps/distributors are for their product.

Also if it's on a customer premises you need to consider if the MV cable must be UL listed. If you can't find it with a UL listing and your AHJ is willing you may be able to exempt per 90.2C. However the challenge with that is that on many jobs big enough to have customer owned medium voltage systems, the definition of AHJ is hard to know. Arguably, it could be either one or a combination of the owner's engineer, the bank, the insurance company, the third party inspection engineer the owner hired after the project is almost done, or the inspector. The result can be people not feeling comfortable making a special permission call because they are afraid one other party will later come and question their decision.

UL Listed MV cable is more readily available than it used to be, thanks to more distributed generation but still not all of it is UL listed. A lot of times you used to get a cutsheet that says "UL Listing available upon request." What's the difference? Well, if you ordered it with UL listing, it would come with a longer lead time and markup because they custom make the same cable, but print UL on it and pay a fee to UL for printing it. I got a letter from a manufacturer one time saying there's no difference.

So I gave up trying to find 15kv CN CIC. It was surprisingly hard to find. Was able to find some regular CN for the not so horrible covid price of $2.50/ft (a month previous it was $1.90).

I had some cheap labor so we just used plumbing PVC for physical protection which was a big savings over electrical PVC.

IIRC the stuff I got was marked mv-90, but even so these step up step Downs around here don't need to be inspected.

 

[yesterlectric]

I had some cheap labor so we just used plumbing PVC for physical protection which was a big savings over electrical PVC.

IIRC the stuff I got was marked mv-90, but even so these step up step Downs around here don't need to be inspected.

Wow, plumbing pvc! As for the cable listing, know that if it does need to be listed, MV-90 being printed on it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is.

 

[Hv&Lv]

Concentric wound neutrals are not nearly as popular as foil or braided shields or as much as it once was so don’t expect to find it in inventory. Every project I ever did with it involved ordering a special run and waiting in line to get it made at the cable plant. You may be looking at a special run too so 10-12 weeks delivery.

I see the exact opposite here. CN cable is quite common with foil or braid shielded cables being harder to find.

 

[electrofelon]

Wow, plumbing pvc! As for the cable listing, know that if it does need to be listed, MV-90 being printed on it doesn’t necessarily mean that it is.

Are conductors required to be listed?

 

[yesterlectric]

Are conductors required to be listed?

I think it was 2017 that the actual listing requirement was put into article 328.

Before that, depending on the judgement of the AHJ, it could be required based on the fact that they have overall responsibility for approval of equipment and conductors. For 2017 and beyond it's specifically required by the NEC to be listed, but you may be able to get a special permission exception.

There's a push for the 2023 NEC to require that by 2026 all MV cable be listed, even if it goes above 35KV; and for all terminations for cables 35KV and less to be listed. This despite there being no listing criteria currently available for MV terminations, no evidence that I am aware of that there's problems in the manufacture of them that a yet to be develped listing standard will fix, and such little demand for customer owned cable above 35KV that probablly no one will make it in a listed product. The listing requirement may create limits to products available, because most of the MV/HV installations are utility owned, meaning every manufacturer willl assess on a per product basis if they want to increase its cost just to get a UL listing only a few customers will request.

 

[electrofelon]

I think it was 2017 that the actual listing requirement was put into article 328.

Before that, depending on the judgement of the AHJ, it could be required based on the fact that they have overall responsibility for approval of equipment and conductors. For 2017 and beyond it's specifically required by the NEC to be listed, but you may be able to get a special permission exception.

There's a push for 2023 to require that by 2026 all MV cable be listed, even if it goes above 35KV; and for all terminations for cables 35KV and less to be listed. This despite there being no listing criteria currently available for MV terminations, no evidence that I am aware of that there's problems in the manufacture of them that a yet to be develped listing standard will fix, and such little demand for customer owned cable above 35KV that probablly no one will make it in a listed product. The listing requirement may create limits to products available, because most of the MV/HV installations are utility owned, meaning every manufacturer willl assess on a per product basis if they want to increase its cost just to get a UL listing only a few customers will request.

I don't have a 2017, but it looks like 328 was changed/moved to a new article, 311 For 2020. Yeah it seems silly to require listing. Yet another case of the incompetent NFPA and CMP's making dumb unnecessary codes.

But anyway, around here no one looks at customer owned MV systems so fortunately it doesn't effect me.