Source for old QO panel covers?

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kwired said:
408.38 says - Panelboards shall be mounted in cabinets, cutout boxes, or identified enclosures and shall be dead-front. No mentioning of listing being required.

Sorry but I don't find any other requirement for the cabinet to be listed, other than in 312.10(C) for non metallic cabinets.

That said each manufacturer typically has a cabinet made to fit their panelboard(s). I don't know if they are listed or not.
Loadcenters that come as all in one (cabinet and panelboard already assembled) typically are listed as a unit. But I don't think anything in NEC prevents you from taking the panelboard out and putting it in some other cabinet. You would still need to comply with 408.38 and have a "dead front" though.
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Sorry, I miswrote "cabinets" in the first sentence where I meant to write "panelboards", the cabinet is not in question. It's typical for the panelboard interior and one or more dead fronts to be listed as an assembly, especially for snap-in breaker panels where the dead-front plays a role in retaining the breakers as well as protecting energized components.

In the context of this thread, a residential load center, I suspect there aren't many if any interiors that are listed without a dead-front.
 
Craigv said:
Sorry, I miswrote "cabinets" in the first sentence where I meant to write "panelboards", the cabinet is not in question. It's typical for the panelboard interior and one or more dead fronts to be listed as an assembly, especially for snap-in breaker panels where the dead-front plays a role in retaining the breakers as well as protecting energized components.

In the context of this thread, a residential load center, I suspect there aren't many if any interiors that are listed without a dead-front.
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But do they have to be listed?

I can show you a box of plastic staples that is listed, though it doesn't have to be. If I use them for anything not mentioned in the listing am I wrong with that use? Been dinged on that before, those aren't listed for that use, but I could go buy some simple metal wire staples that aren't listed at all and those are fine for same application.:roll:
 
kwired said:
But do they have to be listed?

I can show you a box of plastic staples that is listed, though it doesn't have to be. If I use them for anything not mentioned in the listing am I wrong with that use? Been dinged on that before, those aren't listed for that use, but I could go buy some simple metal wire staples that aren't listed at all and those are fine for same application.:roll:
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Article 110 says everything must be listed..."...conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code...". Whether it matters or not depends what the AHJ decides to enforce. The point of this forum is to help understand the Code, not divine what the myriad AHJ's will pass or fail...nobody can do that.:cool:

Now, having said that, even though 110 says all equipment must be listed, the Code let's us build cabinets or enclosures to hold equipment. Go figure....
 
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Craigv said:
Article 110 says everything must be listed..."...conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code...". Whether it matters or not depends what the AHJ decides to enforce. The point of this forum is to help understand the Code, not divine what the myriad AHJ's will pass or fail...nobody can do that.:cool:

Now, having said that, even though 110 says all equipment must be listed, the Code let's us build cabinets or enclosures to hold equipment. Go figure....
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110.3(B)?

That is not what it says. It says Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

One can maybe take from that since these loadcenters are listed as a unit, you must follow instructions.

It certainly doesn't say everything must be listed. There would be no point in the occasional code section throughout the rest of the book that says a particular item must be listed if 110.3(B) already said everything must be listed.
 
kwired said:
110.3(B)?

That is not what it says. It says Listed or labeled equipment shall be installed and used in accordance with any instructions included in the listing or labeling.

One can maybe take from that since these loadcenters are listed as a unit, you must follow instructions.

It certainly doesn't say everything must be listed. There would be no point in the occasional code section throughout the rest of the book that says a particular item must be listed if 110.3(B) already said everything must be listed.
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I must apologize again for typing faster than my brain...I was referring to 110.2, and typed "listed", but the correct verbiage is "approved", which is where I was going with fabrication of dead-fronts and cabinets.
My point has been that panelboards are typically listed with a cover or covers, regardless of a cabinet being included with the listing. And yes, many complete loadcenters are listed as well. In any of these instances, we can't just make our own dead-front/cover or modify the existing cover, unless the AHJ approves (110.2). I have yet to encounter an inspector who approved any form of modification to a dead-front, but I only do residential and light commercial work, so ymmv on that.

Have had more than one AHJ reject covers on old and obsolete loadcenters that had spaces closed in with bolted or riveted plates. I doubt they would have said okay to an entire cover fabrication. When I asked one if welding would have been acceptable, he just gave me "the look". All good...more work for me in panel upgrades.
 
Craigv said:
I must apologize again for typing faster than my brain...I was referring to 110.2, and typed "listed", but the correct verbiage is "approved", which is where I was going with fabrication of dead-fronts and cabinets.
My point has been that panelboards are typically listed with a cover or covers, regardless of a cabinet being included with the listing. And yes, many complete loadcenters are listed as well. In any of these instances, we can't just make our own dead-front/cover or modify the existing cover, unless the AHJ approves (110.2). I have yet to encounter an inspector who approved any form of modification to a dead-front, but I only do residential and light commercial work, so ymmv on that.

Have had more than one AHJ reject covers on old and obsolete loadcenters that had spaces closed in with bolted or riveted plates. I doubt they would have said okay to an entire cover fabrication. When I asked one if welding would have been acceptable, he just gave me "the look". All good...more work for me in panel upgrades.
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That IMO is simply abuse of authority. I had a new inspector that on one of my first inspections we couldn't agree on an issue, one of those things the code isn't so black and white on - he ended up saying "because I said so". He lost all my respect at that moment, and unfortunately I still must deal with him.

To be in a position to approve things that others do, you need to ignore your likes and dislikes and stick to theory and the rules (code) as much as possible. Just because you dislike something doesn't mean it is wrong.
 
kwired said:
That IMO is simply abuse of authority. I had a new inspector that on one of my first inspections we couldn't agree on an issue, one of those things the code isn't so black and white on - he ended up saying "because I said so". He lost all my respect at that moment, and unfortunately I still must deal with him.

To be in a position to approve things that others do, you need to ignore your likes and dislikes and stick to theory and the rules (code) as much as possible. Just because you dislike something doesn't mean it is wrong.
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No argument here, but my fighting days are over. This stuff just rolls off my back. I used to get all wound up, but in the end, they have a job to do and so do I. And I've had worse. And as you wrote, sometimes you still have to deal with them. It's easier to say, "okay" and then deliver the news to the customer.
 
Craigv said:
No argument here, but my fighting days are over. This stuff just rolls off my back. I used to get all wound up, but in the end, they have a job to do and so do I. And I've had worse. And as you wrote, sometimes you still have to deal with them. It's easier to say, "okay" and then deliver the news to the customer.
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Maybe I am getting grumpier as I get older. I may have asked some questions and pointed a few things out in the past, but if they still insisted to have it their way, I would give in. Not so much anymore if I think I am right, unless it is a simple thing not worth fighting over, but even those still get remembered and gives them bad reputation to a certain extent as far as I am concerned. But I still won't settle for "because I said so". With that approach what do we need code books for? "My conclusion based upon..." I will at least be more understanding of that conclusion.
 
I’m just gonna say, I would take a custom built cover with that square D door kit I linked over what OP currently has any day.


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But, and I know I am new to all these codes... doesn’t the panel board listing just cover the panel board and components and simply require it to be safely covered? Which is why you can buy panelboards with separate covers from some manufacturers? In case you want to cover it with say..plexiglass?
 
Adamjamma said:
But, and I know I am new to all these codes... doesn’t the panel board listing just cover the panel board and components and simply require it to be safely covered? Which is why you can buy panelboards with separate covers from some manufacturers? In case you want to cover it with say..plexiglass?
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Well maybe. But most will buy a cover, and the main reason they don't sell certain ones with a cover is there is more than one cover option to choose from. "Loadcenters" may only have two choices, flush or surface style. Get into the commercial/industrial panelboards and you get several cover options sometimes. Flush, surface, hinged, with or without a door...
 
Craigv said:
Article 110 says everything must be listed..."...conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code...". Whether it matters or not depends what the AHJ decides to enforce. The point of this forum is to help understand the Code, not divine what the myriad AHJ's will pass or fail...nobody can do that.:cool:

Now, having said that, even though 110 says all equipment must be listed, the Code let's us build cabinets or enclosures to hold equipment. Go figure....
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Craigv said:
. . . we're just nattering on...
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To add to the nattering a smidge . . . I've always found this "everything must be listed" argument fraught with holes.

Consider the ubiquitous #10 / 32 green grounding screw that is added to an assembly of surface mounted raceway and metallic boxes.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the captive green grounding screws that are commonly part of a "device", such as a receptacle or switch.

I mean any of the various #10 / 32 that one can buy and use for EGC bonding to metallic junction boxes.

Have you ever tried to buy "listed" #10 / 32 ground screws? . . . IF they exist, they are extremely rare.
 
al hildenbrand said:
To add to the nattering a smidge . . . I've always found this "everything must be listed" argument fraught with holes.

Consider the ubiquitous #10 / 32 green grounding screw that is added to an assembly of surface mounted raceway and metallic boxes.

To be clear, I'm not talking about the captive green grounding screws that are commonly part of a "device", such as a receptacle or switch.

I mean any of the various #10 / 32 that one can buy and use for EGC bonding to metallic junction boxes.

Have you ever tried to buy "listed" #10 / 32 ground screws? . . . IF they exist, they are extremely rare.
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Those don't have to be listed. They don't even have to be green, though some think they do.
 
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