Speaking of permits..or avoiding them

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The mandate is 12 inspections per day......if they call in a wall and ceiling inspection on lets say a standard dwelling ( Single Family )...thats (2) inspections.....not sure how other areas do it ....can only speak for where I am. And if by chance they are ready for a early service or temp. service and meet the requirements of the USBC.....we can give them yet another inspection so it ends up with (3) inspections for that job.

So dont assume it's 15-18 Complex inspections a day......;)
 
LarryFine said:
Wouldn't that require moving the house? :-?


What I mean is that I can be owner /builder in one county, then do the same thing to another property in another county. In the city, I can do it all day long. Their attitude is it is a state law and if you break it, you deal with the state. They are not into enforcement of state specific laws.

Sorts defeats the need for my licenses.

c2500
 
I'm new to posting here, but I have been using this site as a resource for a while now. You guys have kept me from making a fool of myself several times, and I appreciate it.

I am a Home Inspector in Missouri. The rural areas I do inspections in almost universally have no provision for permits, or municipal inspection. If you asked most of the local governments what version of the NEC they require builders to adhere to, chances are, they wouldn't be able to tell you what the NEC even is.

After years of seeing the crappy, dangerous work done by "Joe Handyman" around here I feel like I can justify the job I do without much problem.

The main resistance I encounter is when I am called to a city that DOES license it's contractors, and require permits to be pulled, and has a system in place for municipal inspections, but is still a small enough suburb to be run on the "good ol' boy" sytem, which pretty mch only requires you to follow the rules they've put in place if you are building new construction, or if they don't know who you are.

It's very frustrating to me to argue with a Realtor in front of her clients and mine that while this panel may be where it's been since 1973:
Electricalpanel1.jpg

Mainpanel.jpg


This bathroom hasn't:
Bathroomelectrical-1.jpg


And neither has the A/C breaker that is being fed from the main:
TopLoadAC.jpg

Or the sub panel that was supposedly recently installed by a reputable local company:
Garagesub2.jpg

GarageSub.jpg

And that they really should have someone come repair the laundry list of deficiencies I found, while she tells me that in 14 years of being an agent, none of the work she's ever had done in the houses shes been involved with has required a permit.

So, while I agree that it can be a little ridiculous, time consuming, and cost prohibitive to pull a permit to put in a new outlet so the garage door openers don't have to have an extension cord run to them. It's sometimes needed.

It's very frustrating to me that there are people out there so interested in making a quick buck at the expense of other peoples safety (present company excluded, I'm sure y'all know some though) that we have to have the Government (and people like me I guess) breathing down everyones neck all the time to try and make sure they half know what they're doing.

I'd gladly find another job if anyone has a better solution.

Anyway, thanks again guys, I'll try to participate more in the future.
 
So dont assume it's 15-18 Complex inspections a day......

I did not assume anything read my post, I said "not sure the type of jobs your are inspecting". I still find that number of inspections high for anything more than a cursory inspection unless all 18 are in one location or you are walking to every job in a two block area.
 
bottom line, permits are required, doing work without a permit is a violation that can result in fines, and if you are a licensed contractor working without permits you have no excuses, you know better, and it could get you in trouble with your board of contractors and cost you your license
 
brian john said:
I did not assume anything read my post, I said "not sure the type of jobs your are inspecting". I still find that number of inspections high for anything more than a cursory inspection unless all 18 are in one location or you are walking to every job in a two block area.
Well.....some of us are not your average inspectors either...anyway if atleast 12 were not maintained we would be fired.....a good inspection from a good inspector on a typical house rough in lets say should not take more than 30-45 minutes ( some longer of course depending on the house ).....if you know what you are looking for it is easy and if you have the code references in your head....no problem.

Some take longer...some less....I dont take lunch most days and what happens is you have probably 8-10 full inspections and some fluff inspections like wiring a bathroom or addition and checking off a single wall on a large commercial job where you are only looking at a few receptacles and a single switch...they all count regardless of the size.
 
AndyS said:
I'm new to posting here, but I have been using this site as a resource for a while now. You guys have kept me from making a fool of myself several times, and I appreciate it.

I am a Home Inspector in Missouri. The rural areas I do inspections in almost universally have no provision for permits, or municipal inspection. If you asked most of the local governments what version of the NEC they require builders to adhere to, chances are, they wouldn't be able to tell you what the NEC even is.

After years of seeing the crappy, dangerous work done by "Joe Handyman" around here I feel like I can justify the job I do without much problem.

The main resistance I encounter is when I am called to a city that DOES license it's contractors, and require permits to be pulled, and has a system in place for municipal inspections, but is still a small enough suburb to be run on the "good ol' boy" sytem, which pretty mch only requires you to follow the rules they've put in place if you are building new construction, or if they don't know who you are.

It's very frustrating to me to argue with a Realtor in front of her clients and mine that while this panel may be where it's been since 1973:

And that they really should have someone come repair the laundry list of deficiencies I found, while she tells me that in 14 years of being an agent, none of the work she's ever had done in the houses shes been involved with has required a permit.

So, while I agree that it can be a little ridiculous, time consuming, and cost prohibitive to pull a permit to put in a new outlet so the garage door openers don't have to have an extension cord run to them. It's sometimes needed.

It's very frustrating to me that there are people out there so interested in making a quick buck at the expense of other peoples safety (present company excluded, I'm sure y'all know some though) that we have to have the Government (and people like me I guess) breathing down everyones neck all the time to try and make sure they half know what they're doing.

I'd gladly find another job if anyone has a better solution.

Anyway, thanks again guys, I'll try to participate more in the future.



In MN you need a license to perform any of the work in this thread and it must be inspected by a state licensed electrical inspector..If HO wires home he/she must live in or be going to live in the property they wire..it must also be inspected..

If EC doing the work, the EC has to pull permit..but here you do not need to be present for inspection..So HI in this state can not inspect electrical..SO may I ask your qualifications for inspecting electrical..

Our inspector covers at least 50 sq miles and he has a set schedule for covered areas..he deals with emergencies on an as needed basis..you do not need to be present for inspections as long as HO or GC is there to let them in or you tell them how to gain access to property legally..schedule your service changes for when he is in area..there is allot of benefits to a rural area and having a personal relationship with the inspector..Inspector has my cell # and I have his cell #...do any of you have that relationship with your inspectors..
 
cschmid said:
If EC doing the work, the EC has to pull permit..but here you do not need to be present for inspection..So HI in this state can not inspect electrical..SO may I ask your qualifications for inspecting electrical..

Well,
To all forum members, I am formally requesting that you no longer publicly question new members qualifications for posting here.

Keep in mind that all new member posts have already been approved by a forum moderator before they show up on the forum.

If you feel a new member is over their head please exercise one of two options.

1) Notify one of the Moderators, I suggest you send a PM to one of us with a description of the problem you see with a post. We will gladly discuss it with you.

2) Do nothing, ignore the post and move on.

The reasons for this should be self evident, we are going to chase away new members if they feel they have to justify their qualifications with the entire membership at large.

Not to mention many times it is just plain rude.

Bob
2007 Chief Moderator Mike Holt Forum
But since you asked, let me start by saying that I don't live in MN.
There is no License or qualification required to become a Home Inspector in MO.
I have been involved in commercial building maintenance as an Operating Engineer for about 14 years, which required me to become familiar with NFPA Codes and Standards.
I have also been trained to be a HI as such to meet the requirements in states that do have licensing. I've passed the National HI Exam, and I read 90 words a minute with 95% comprehension, which qualifies me to look up things in the code book, and search for things on this forum for clarification if I need it.

You seem to be having difficulty understanding that there's NO ONE but me looking at a lot of these installations. You cannot pull permits if there isn't a provision to issue them. You can't get your job inspected if there's no one (government employed) to inspect it. You can't get a license to be an EC if there's no provision for issuing them. I know that it may be hard to understand, but that's the way it works in a lot of places around here.

I am hired by the perspective HO to protect them from unscrupulous contractors, sellers, RE agents, etc. that are willing to make a buck at the expense of their safety. My inspections are not meant to be technically exhaustive, and I recommend the deficiencies that I discover be repaired by a qualified contractor. It's up to them to find out who that may be.
That's where things like the BBB and other consumer advocate groups come into play.
I work in some cities that do require Contractors Licenses and permits, and I would say that, excepting new construction, I find almost as many things wrong there. Most HO's don't pull permits, most HO's don't want to spend the money on a contractor that's licensed and pulls permits, these are just facts of life.
Another fact is that there are far more complaints with the BBB regarding contractors, and RE agents, than HI's, and I routinely find violations (in certain local municipalities) that Codes Inspectors miss.

I may not meet the lofty standards set forth by your state, but believe me, I am much better than NOTHING.
Most EC's like me, because I generate work for them, unless they fall into the unscrupulous category, then they don't like me very much.

I have 10's of gigs of pictures that show the most ridiculous installations some of you may have ever seen. I also check the plumbing, HVAC, and structure as well.
Human ingenuity never ceases to amaze me.
 
AndyS said:
I may not meet the lofty standards set forth by your state, but believe me, I am much better than NOTHING.

I think that's great. I have always want to see those qualifications on a business card or Resume. BETTER THAN NOTHING. It's undisputable.

I think many of our current political candidates are running on that very platform. ;) ;) If it works , run with it.
 
jflynn said:
why is that?they still need to get the work inspected.

Actually, no, they don't have to.

The law only requires inspections of work done for hire.

Also why is it in MA, a H.O. can wire there own house but need to hire a plumber/??...

Because the plumbers where better organized then the electricians when the laws where being written. (At least that is my opinion why)
 
growler said:
I think that's great. I have always want to see those qualifications on a business card or Resume. BETTER THAN NOTHING. It's undisputable.

I think many of our current political candidates are running on that very platform. ;) ;) If it works , run with it.

For someone as interested in State control as you appear to be, it should be enough that I meet the qualifications set forth by my state, which are NONE.
If you disagree with those rules, then move here, and lobby to change them.

Recently, in your state, a HI Licensing law was vetoed by the Governor. He found it to be overly restrictive, and unnecessary. I applaud him for that.
I also should have mentioned that I belong to a professional organization that has a Standards of Practice, Code of Ethics, and requires continuing education, and that seems to be good enough for GA and many other states.

KS recently passed a law requiring HI's to be licensed by July '09. As I work in that state also, I will follow the rules and get my license.
The legislation makes it illegal for me to contractually limit my liability to less than $10,000 per inspection. There is no other business in KS that is not allowed to limit its liability to it's customer by written contract. Until now, I was able to limit my liability to the price of inspection, but now it's going to be approx. 50 times the price of my average inspection.
Do you think it would be reasonable for you to regulated to carry enough insurance to cover 50x the expense of any job you do? No contractor, RE agent, or any other person involved in the industry I'm involved in has such a requirement.

This law, billed as "consumer protection" is only going to serve to raise the cost of inspections to cover my new expenses, until they may be out of reach for some of the people who truly need my services. They won't protect anyone, which kind of brings us back to the topic of this and several other (I'm sure) threads on this forum.

The Licensing board will be made up of three HI's, a Contractor, and a RE agent. No conflict of interest there huh?

Like I said, my work helps people who are trying to protect themselves by hiring me, and yes, I am a dang sight better than nothing, which is what they would get without me. That's good enough for them, and it's good enough for me.
 
AndyS said:
it should be enough that I meet the qualifications set forth by my state, which are NONE.
Recently, in your state, a HI Licensing law was vetoed by the Governor. He found it to be overly restrictive, and unnecessary. I applaud him for that.

That's my whole problem with the qualifications, I can't think of anyone that doesn't meet them.

I think the governer is an idiot. Just because you don't need any qualifications to be a politician doesn't mean there are not jobs for which qualification should be mandatory. The Governor can probably afford the best servies money can buy but that doesn't help the normal joe six pack.
I have seen to many bad home inspections by unqualified inspectors.

My comments are not directed at you but at the state, both yours and mine. Any job that can be held with no qualifications is often held by the unqualified. And better than nothing just doesn't cut it, not a very high standard.

This not directed at you but an attack on the system or lack of one. You may be a qualified inspector but you are not the only inspector in the state. There are some good one's here but there are some that don't know their A_ _ from a hole in the ground and they meet all necessary qualifications.
 
growler said:
This not directed at you but an attack on the system or lack of one. You may be a qualified inspector but you are not the only inspector in the state. There are some good one's here but there are some that don't know their A_ _ from a hole in the ground and they meet all necessary qualifications.
So we have a problem related to semantics, and a different point of view regarding the role of Government, not such a big deal.
We do agree though, that there are a lot of bad inspectors, and bad contractors, etc. that thrive under this system. I am just not ready to restrict myself in order to restrict them.
There are already legal means in place to deal with those types, and already laws in place in some areas where I work to regulate them.
What I was trying to show in my posts, is that I could move anywhere in the country (that I'm aware of) and open a HI business as soon as they were able to process my paperwork. So, you could say that I'm overqualified to do them in MO.
I feel comfortable that my level of knowledge provides a much needed service to my customers, and may at times even save peoples lives. I try to learn something new every day, and if a State License ever becomes available, I would be willing to take the test just to fulfill personal goals, and improve my service, without some regulating body forcing me to do it.
Is that better than "better than nothing"?:smile:
 
AndyS said:
What I was trying to show in my posts, is that I could move anywhere in the country (that I'm aware of) and open a HI business as soon as they were able to process my paperwork. So, you could say that I'm overqualified to do them in MO.

You are out of luck if you choose to move to MA.

(d) To be eligible for licensure as a home inspector, an applicant shall:

(i) be of good moral character;

(ii) have successfully completed high school or its equivalent;

(iii) have been engaged as a licensed associate home inspector for not less than one year and have performed not less than 100 home inspections under the supervision of a licensed home inspector;

(iv) have passed a written or electronic competency examination offered or approved by the board; and

(v) pay the appropriate fee set by the secretary of administration and finance.

http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/112-222.htm
 
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