Spot the violation in this pool install

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brantmacga

brantmacga

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I've done about 4 troubleshooting calls for this pool contractor.

they usually work w/o permits and create one heck of a mess.


i was asked to do this equipment install for them since they needed a permit. i showed up to the job and found the following:


the panel has been mounted and all equipment connected. they just want me to make the connections in the panel. this wasn't what i agreed to.


so here's the picture of the panel:

3ade54bc0efb.jpg





and here is the feeder, which runs about 175' back to the main.

9e77ce6cb142.jpg




mmmmm. not so good.


i called the pool contractor to let him know what was wrong. he said the homeowner's electrician (new construction house) ran this for them.

the cable is connected to a 50A GFCI in the panel; 2005 code.
 
Nice.



I wonder if it is at least in conduit the whole distance?

If so, I wonder if they used plumbing 90's?
 
Is that where it comes out to the panel? I'm seeing about 4-5' of RX outside, that is the violation right? There may be more but that caught my eye first. IIRC under the 2005 there was a slight loophole on whether inside a pipe was a wet location or not, it was cleared up in the 2008 though. Now if that pipe goes underground then all bets are off.

Tom
 
Pool equipment must also have an insulated grounding conductor all the way back to the service equipment.
Therefore, the whole shebang is a big no-no.
 
walkerj said:
Pool equipment must also have an insulated grounding conductor all the way back to the service equipment.
Therefore, the whole shebang is a big no-no.
Click to expand...

Yeah - it looks like the feeder is two hots and a neutral (black, red, white), with no EGC? Yet it can be seen that there are EGCs on the buss bar in the panel - meaning that the neutral and EGC are bonded in the panel, which, as far as I understand, is a no-no, and might also defeat the GFCI in the main panel on a ground fault condition since the ground fault could travel back through the neutral. Could it be that bad?

On the other hand, maybe it is a hot, a neutral, and an insulated EGC that just happen to be the wrong colors...

... or maybe that I don't know anything about pools! :)
 
480sparky said:
I'd say there is an EGC.... between the red and the green in the next pipe.
Click to expand...

An EGC that goes back to the main panel along with the other feeders? I'd think the EGC back to the main would go through the same conduit as the feeders, no? Or is this one of those moments when I'm staring right at it but can't see it?
 
SAC said:
An EGC that goes back to the main panel along with the other feeders? I'd think the EGC back to the main would go through the same conduit as the feeders, no? Or is this one of those moments when I'm staring right at it but can't see it?
Click to expand...

No, it's between the red wire of the cable, and the green wire in the next pipe. Look close.

bareground.jpg
 
480sparky said:
No, it's between the red wire of the cable, and the green wire in the next pipe. Look close.

bareground.jpg
Click to expand...

I see - that looked like an EGC for a branch circuit, not the feeder. I didn't see how that angle of wire would put it into the conduit and into the buss bar without other visible looping.
 
SAC said:
I see - that looked like an EGC for a branch circuit, not the feeder. I didn't see how that angle of wire would put it into the conduit and into the buss bar without other visible looping.
Click to expand...

I'm simply assuming that it belongs to the NM assembly as the rest of the pipes look like they've got THHN in them. But there are at least 3 bare grounds on the bar, so it give me pause.....
 
480sparky correctly identified the EGC. the bare ground that's landed on the far left terminal of the grounding bar is that wire. that is 6-3NM; its about 175' long, with over 100' of it underground.

while not a violation, another funny thing is those two #8 bare wires you see on the right side of the grounding bar. one of them is the bonding wire coming from the forming shell and is connected to the pumps; the second one leaves the grounding bar and goes to a bonding lug attached to the panel enclosure. its apparent whoever did this had no idea what they were doing.
 
So after all, what are the violations?

So after all, what are the violations?

brantmacga said:
i called the pool contractor to let him know what was wrong. he said the homeowner's electrician (new construction house) ran this for them.

the cable is connected to a 50A GFCI in the panel; 2005 code.
Click to expand...

I see 6/3 Romex in a PVC conduit, EGC may or may not be attached. I know it is not prudent to run cable in conduit unless you rip the jacket off. Perhaps the conduit is simply protecting the length that is exposed, and stapled under the house? My understanding is metal conduit is required for pool equipment feeders the full length of run AND a separate EGC, along with one in the conduit. Am I correct? I could review the Code but have read it and that seems to indicate to me. Maybe PVC is allowed, but certainly not stuffed with Romex. And I agree the neutral and ground bus should not be bonded, and it appears they are not.
 
LarryFine said:
And once you've done that, what type are the conductors?
Click to expand...

surprisingly, they are THWN. Did you know that? I certainly did not.


I got a call from the pool contractor who said he spoke w/ the "electrician" that did this install.

According to the other electrician, he called the supply house and the salesman confirmed to him that the conductors inside of romex are THWN, therefore this is a legal installation.
:roll:

That "electrician" is refusing to replace the pool feeder since the supply house said it was okay.

Anyway, I've got to give them a quote on redoing all the work.
 
brantmacga said:
surprisingly, they are THWN. Did you know that? I certainly did not.


I got a call from the pool contractor who said he spoke w/ the "electrician" that did this install.

According to the other electrician, he called the supply house and the salesman confirmed to him that the conductors inside of romex are THWN, therefore this is a legal installation.
:roll:

That "electrician" is refusing to replace the pool feeder since the supply house said it was okay.

Anyway, I've got to give them a quote on redoing all the work.
Click to expand...

So the supply house guy thinks romex is approved for Wet location???:-?:D
 
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