Square D 225 Amp panels with MLO or feed thruu panels come with an oblong lug at the nuetral and on some panels for phase lugs. Square D states that the oblong lug can have 2 wires under the same lug. Reading 408.21 in the 2002 NEC tels me otherwise. The wires under this lug are not parallel conductors, but the second conductor is a tap for a secondary section of the panel. Any help on this is appreciated.
Square D panel lugs
- Thread starter kiss
- Start date
- Status
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Square D panel lugs
In My opinion 408.21 is black and white.
One terminal, one conductor, regardless of the terminals listing.
Unless it is for parallel conductors.
In My opinion 408.21 is black and white.
One terminal, one conductor, regardless of the terminals listing.
Unless it is for parallel conductors.
charlie
Senior Member
- Location
- Indianapolis
Re: Square D panel lugs
Hey guys, don't lose sight of the fact that it is only referring to the grounded conductor.
Hey guys, don't lose sight of the fact that it is only referring to the grounded conductor.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Square D panel lugs
Originally posted by charlie:
Hey guys, don't lose sight of the fact that it is only referring to the grounded conductor.
Re: Square D panel lugs
Does that mean that on the phase lugs you can put as many wires as you can fit under that lug? or 2 wires of the same or different sizes as you would if making a tap? Is there anything in the 2002 NEC pertaining to phase lugs or just at the neutral? Also whats the difference wether its the phase lug or the neutral lug? Slightly confused.
Does that mean that on the phase lugs you can put as many wires as you can fit under that lug? or 2 wires of the same or different sizes as you would if making a tap? Is there anything in the 2002 NEC pertaining to phase lugs or just at the neutral? Also whats the difference wether its the phase lug or the neutral lug? Slightly confused.
Re: Square D panel lugs
The handbook has a long explination about how it is a trouble shooting problem to have to disconnect the grounded conductor for a second circuit (which may remain live) at the same time the grounded conductor for the first circuit is bing removed. It also notes that some panelboard instructions permit the use of a single conductor termination for more than one equipment grounding conductor.
So it is basically saying that two wires may be OK for EGC's, just not neutrals.
Personally, I'm thinking about the danger of disconnecting a neutral for a Multiwire branch circuit while that circuit is still hot.
Steve
The handbook has a long explination about how it is a trouble shooting problem to have to disconnect the grounded conductor for a second circuit (which may remain live) at the same time the grounded conductor for the first circuit is bing removed. It also notes that some panelboard instructions permit the use of a single conductor termination for more than one equipment grounding conductor.
So it is basically saying that two wires may be OK for EGC's, just not neutrals.
Personally, I'm thinking about the danger of disconnecting a neutral for a Multiwire branch circuit while that circuit is still hot.
Steve
Re: Square D panel lugs
Hey guys what happened to the manufacturer states it that makes it a okay. For eons of time SQUARE D legally was and is allowed to double lug cbs due to it having two lugs per attachment point.
Read the manufacturers specs. Tey do override the code in many circumstances. Square d has been in court with many jurisdictions and always win the case. So listen and learn from time honored procedures.
Hey guys what happened to the manufacturer states it that makes it a okay. For eons of time SQUARE D legally was and is allowed to double lug cbs due to it having two lugs per attachment point.
Read the manufacturers specs. Tey do override the code in many circumstances. Square d has been in court with many jurisdictions and always win the case. So listen and learn from time honored procedures.
- Location
- Massachusetts
Re: Square D panel lugs
You are talking about the terminals on a breaker and in most instances you may use a terminal per it's listing...unless there is a specific NEC section that prohibits it, like this one.
Can you show us an instance where the manufacturers specifications lessen the NEC?
You are talking about the terminals on a breaker and in most instances you may use a terminal per it's listing...unless there is a specific NEC section that prohibits it, like this one.
hurk27
Senior Member
- Location
- Portage, Indiana NEC: 2008
Re: Square D panel lugs
Straps Square D still makes them and it is still code compliant to put two wires on them. But this thread was about the neutral bars.
Straps Square D still makes them and it is still code compliant to put two wires on them. But this thread was about the neutral bars.
I had some literature for mill bank meter sockets that said the same thing for there oblong lugs. But they don't use them any more. They now use set screw.
Re: Square D panel lugs
Again I will ask my question [/QUOTE]( Does that mean that on the phase lugs you can put as many wires as you can fit under that lug? Is there anything in the 2002 NEC pertaining to phase lugs or just at the neutral? Also whats the difference wether its the phase lug or the neutral lug?) Removing the neutral wire under load from the oblong lug would create a problem not just in the second section of the panel, but the first section of the panel as well. Never mind the problems you will have if you have common neutrals on your branch circuits by loosening the neutral lug to remove the neutral. But from what I am reading in the replies is that this is O.K.
I wonder if there are any other panels out there that have this type of lugs on the panels? Phase lugs or neutral lugs? I have not seen any.
Again I will ask my question [/QUOTE]( Does that mean that on the phase lugs you can put as many wires as you can fit under that lug? Is there anything in the 2002 NEC pertaining to phase lugs or just at the neutral? Also whats the difference wether its the phase lug or the neutral lug?) Removing the neutral wire under load from the oblong lug would create a problem not just in the second section of the panel, but the first section of the panel as well. Never mind the problems you will have if you have common neutrals on your branch circuits by loosening the neutral lug to remove the neutral. But from what I am reading in the replies is that this is O.K.
I wonder if there are any other panels out there that have this type of lugs on the panels? Phase lugs or neutral lugs? I have not seen any.
Re: Square D panel lugs
Kiss, these lugs are common. The number and size of conductors allowed to be used with them are stamped on the lug. Read articles 408.21 (per your first post) and 110.14(A) for the answer to your question/s.
Roger
[ December 02, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
Kiss, these lugs are common. The number and size of conductors allowed to be used with them are stamped on the lug. Read articles 408.21 (per your first post) and 110.14(A) for the answer to your question/s.
Roger
[ December 02, 2004, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: roger ]
Re: Square D panel lugs
Posted by Kiss:
1st post by kiss:
Steve
Posted by Kiss:
In general, you can put the number of wires the lug is listed for on it. If it is listed for 1, then one wire only. If it is listed for 2, then 2 is OK.
If you are going to take off a phase wire, you will probably shut off the breaker first. If not, and you pull both wires off, you are still only disconnecting power to both loads. Not the same problem as pulling off the neutral of a multiwire branch.
1st post by kiss:
If it is a neutral conductor, it is a violation. It should be on its own lug. If is is an equipment ground, it is OK.
Steve
- Location
- Wisconsin
- Occupation
- PE (Retired) - Power Systems
Re: Square D panel lugs
This sounds like a typical situation where someone is learning that manufacturers can build and UL can list products which cannot be installed under some editions of the NEC.
Also the Square D lug is more of a figure eight than an oblong/oval, so maybe it can be considered as two openings.
But, the answer is: just because it is possible does not make it acceptable for installation unless approved by the AHJ.
This sounds like a typical situation where someone is learning that manufacturers can build and UL can list products which cannot be installed under some editions of the NEC.
Also the Square D lug is more of a figure eight than an oblong/oval, so maybe it can be considered as two openings.
But, the answer is: just because it is possible does not make it acceptable for installation unless approved by the AHJ.
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