Strapping of EMT

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Re: Strapping of EMT

Websparky, as much as i disagree that tie wire is ok i would have to accept your red tag based on the word APPROVED as defined in article 100
Think i will start carrying a dig cam to work.Maybe tie wire is uncommon in your area but is used widely here.Am curious as to why your so neggative about it.It does a far better job than a lot of other ways and can look fine if done right.Wish you could see a few jobs that had used it correctly then tell me why you won't approve it.The way i read this is if you approved it then it's fine.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Dave,
Everyone likes to threaten "I'll see you in court" but, in reality it very rarely makes it to past the Board of Building Standards.
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I stand by my statements. The use of tie wire almost always results in a more secure conduit installation than the use of the listed spring steel clamps. I'm very stubborn and would take this issue to court based on principle. I have no doubt that I could prove to the judge that my tie wire is a more secure support than many of the listed straps that you would automatically approve.
Don
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Don,the judge is not the guy you need to convince.
"110.2 Approval.
The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved"
Now go to article 100 and read APPROVED.
You would loose the case.I would suggest trying to convince the ahj to approve it.It's actually hurting the customer if he rejects it.Now if he could come up with a good reason to say not to use it i would love to hear it.Like its a fire hazard or shock hazard or the pipe might fall off.Something more than cause he doesn't like the looks.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Jim,
The first step would be with the AHJ, but if he does not "approve" the tie wire the next step is the courts. The courts have the ultimate authority in this manner because the code is a law and the courts job is to interpret laws. I would have to make the "corrections" first so that my customer would not be harmed waiting for a year or two to work this through the system. My court case would ask for 3 things, first to "approve" the use of tie wire, second to reimburse me for the costs of replacing the tie wire and the legal costs associated with the court case, and third, a permanent injunction banning that inspector from ever again inspecting any job that I was associated with. I think that I would not have any problem in winning the first two, the third would be in question.
Don
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Im thinking if you did take this to court you would lose either way.First i dought any judge would know enough about wiring to make this choice without outside help.If you win your jobs will be getting inspections like you never seen before.And if you don't win you could face there legal cost and still get rough inspections.I would try to reason with the inspector first but if he refuses then just do it his way as everyone else is too so it's fair.In short nec gave ahj the power to decide .
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Jim.
I would try to reason with the inspector first but if he refuses then just do it his way as everyone else is too so it's fair.
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Yes, you start there and then go higher up, but when you can't come to an agreement, the next step is to give in or go to court. The ultimate AHJ is the courts.
Don
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

358.30 Securing and Supporting.
EMT shall be installed as a complete system as provided in Article 300 and shall be securely fastened in place and supported in accordance with 358.30(A) and (B).
(A) Securely Fastened. EMT shall be securely fastened in place at least every 3 m (10 ft). In addition, each EMT run between termination points shall be securely fastened within 900 mm (3 ft) of each outlet box, junction box, device box, cabinet, conduit body, or other tubing termination.
Show me the term by approved means or accept the tie wire and be quiet.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

As ugly as it may be I did have an Inspector look at the tie wire strapping vertical runs from an outlet box up through wood framing. Cross supports were placed 36" from the box and tie wired to the vertical runs. He looked, tugged and said that the code states supported but does not mention with what and kept walking. It was fine with that AHJ.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Jimwalker
This draw on 110.2 ?only if approved? only goes to show the misdirection of someone that doesn?t fully understand the intent of the National Electrical Code. Full understanding of approved takes some research. Every day I hear people refer to the AHJ while talking about the ?inspector person,? these people don?t have a full under standing of the Authority Having Jurisdiction. As you start reading the definition the first word you come to is ?organization? such as a third party testing laboratory. Your profile states that you are a ?crew leader? learn to be a leader not a follower. Start by understanding what the NEC stands for. If you truly think that the National Fire Protection Association is going to leave the authority of approval to one person, then let the Code Enforcement Official inject their opinion on you as being code. Personally I think that I will learn for myself through researching the NEC and never let any ?ONE? person tell me he is the ?AHJ.? Be sure to read on down to 110.3 and see the outline that is set forth for approval.
Take a few minutes and read the first few pages of the NEC (the ones after the cover), this might help a lot of people.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This draw on 110.2 ?only if approved? only goes to show the misdirection of someone that doesn?t fully understand the intent of the National Electrical Code. Full understanding of approved takes some research. Every day I hear people refer to the AHJ while talking about the ?inspector person,? these people don?t have a full under standing of the Authority Having Jurisdiction.
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JW just who or what the AHJ is depends entirely on the area you work.

In some ares a power company representative is the AHJ, in another area the ?inspector person,? is the one and only AHJ, in still another area a State office is the AHJ.

Determination of the AHJ has nothing to do with the NFPA so I do not understand what you mean when you say;

If you truly think that the National Fire Protection Association is going to leave the authority of approval to one person,
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Authority Having Jurisdiction. The organization, office, or individual responsible for approving equipment, materials, an installation, or a procedure.
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I think they say it can be one person in the definition. :D

It is not up to the NFPA it is up to the area adopting the code how they set up enforcement.

these people don?t have a full under standing of the Authority Having Jurisdiction. As you start reading the definition the first word you come to is ?organization? such as a third party testing laboratory.
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I would be very surprised if any NTL is an AHJ for any area.

An organization could be a many things, that is the whole point of that definition.

The AHJ can and is different in each area that adopts the NEC.

Bob

[ January 02, 2005, 09:31 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jimwalker:
"110.2 Approval.
The conductors and equipment required or permitted by this Code shall be acceptable only if approved."
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Forget tie-wire. I wanna use bubble gum.

But bubble gum won't work.

Thus the reason for 110.2, IMO. AHJ has the opportunity to call questionable practices out on the mat. Same with 110.12. An inspector better have one heck of an argument--IMO, pulling 110.12 out of your hat is analogous to the president going to war before consent of congress--that prez better be right or it'll hit the fan!

Having every little idea or practice spelled out as "permitted" or "required" limits the options. If you wanna use bailing wire, just talk it over with the inspector first. If he thinks that's nuts and will not sign off on it, at least you know before you install it! :)
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Bob
Here we go again, as once said earlier, we need to do our research before speaking. The NEC is volume 70 of the NFPA the people who are the finial AHJ. NFPA, 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy MA 02169-7471 telephone 1 617 770-3000. Ask and see for yourself. As you stated the AHJ sometimes is the power company and could be the insurance company that is insuring the building. I hope that you know that either of these can over ride the inspector. This conception that the inspector is the final AHJ only goes to show how little someone truly knows about the NEC and the function of the NFPA.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Bob
Here we go again, as once said earlier, we need to do our research before speaking. The NEC is volume 70 of the NFPA the people who are the finial AHJ. NFPA, 1 Batterymarch Park, Quincy MA 02169-7471 telephone 1 617 770-3000. Ask and see for yourself. As you stated the AHJ sometimes is the power company and could be the insurance company that is insuring the building. I hope that you know that either of these can over ride the inspector. This conception that the inspector is the final AHJ only goes to show how little someone truly knows about the NEC and the function of the NFPA.
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The NFPA is not the AHJ and your your condescending attitude should be put aside. :p
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

JW, I really don't understand how you can operate under this misconception!

Under the definition of AHJ, in chapter 100, there is a FPN for clarification. Have you read it?
The phrase "authority having jurisdiction" is used in NFPA documents in a broad manner, since jurisdictions and approval agengies vary...the AHJ may be a federal, state, local or other regional department or individual such as a fire chief; fire marshall; chief of a fire prevention bureau, labor department, or health department...
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Read 90.4! It's code, not a FPN:
...The AHJ for enforcement of this code has the responsibility for making interpretations of the rules, for deciding the approval of equipment and materials...
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An inspector is an extension of the AHJ. Usually it's not an individual, someone signs his check. If you have an issue with an inspector, you can go to his boss, as this is a higher AHJ. But the very very end of the food chain are the NFPA, and they have been very careful to write Article 90 in such a way as they aren't bothered by people like us!!! :)

[ January 02, 2005, 10:16 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This conception that the inspector is the final AHJ only goes to show how little someone truly knows about the NEC and the function of the NFPA.
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JW,

Do you have any idea who participates in this forum on a daily basis? :roll:
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:
As you stated the AHJ sometimes is the power company and could be the insurance company that is insuring the building. I hope that you know that either of these can over ride the inspector.
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I don't know where you live but here in MA neither the power company nor an insurance company can override my local inspector. They can require more than the NEC but never less.

Originally posted by jwelectric:
This conception that the inspector is the final AHJ only goes to show how little someone truly knows about the NEC and the function of the NFPA.
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This goes to show how little you know about other areas of the country.

The local inspector can be the final AHJ, it is up to the people adopting the code who has authority.

Take my state, if I want an official interpretation I do not have the option of going to the NFPA I must go to "The Board of Fire Prevention Regulations."

If I want to appeal a local inspectors decision I must go to "The Board of Electricians? Appeals".

You have to realize enforcement is handled by the local areas not the NFPA.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

A new twist to this 110.2 or AHJ acceptance that wire pullers have grown to accept through out this great country of ours. Yes I refuse to call any one that is limited to this way of thinking a true electrician.
An electrical contractor does a remodel job and uses duck tape to plug holes in the bottom of the panel. The inspector, covered up with inspections that day, signs off on the job and the power company connects power to the panel. Using the thinking that I have read in this thread would lead be to believe that duck tape is an approved method for plugging unused holes in a panel because it was acceptable to the ?AHJ,? he signed off. One is as wrong as the other.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

I agree just because an item is not written up does not mean it is approved.

However the area adopting the code could amend the NEC and make duct tape an approved method.

As an example one of the amendments we have in MA is to the derating table.

I do not have to derate conductors here in MA as much as we do when I work in RI.

Bob

[ January 02, 2005, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:

An electrical contractor does a remodel job and uses duck tape to plug holes in the bottom of the panel. The inspector, covered up with inspections that day, signs off on the job and the power company connects power to the panel.
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JW,

Wouldn't you say that's because the inspector didn't notice the duct tape in the first place, and not because the inspector believes that duct tape is acceptable? How many inspectors lean down and look underneath a panel? Not many.


Using the thinking that I have read in this thread would lead be to believe that duck tape is an approved method for plugging unused holes in a panel because it was acceptable to the ?AHJ,? he signed off. One is as wrong as the other.
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That isn't the case at all. Some electricians might think that, but nobody here. (Ok, maybe Bob does. :D ) Besides, we aren't talking about duct tape here, we're talking about tie wire. No one here would argue that duct tape is acceptable for anything other than sealing the ends of conduit during a concrete pour.

Tie wire is a very secure fastening method, hence this long debate.

Edit because Bob posted faster than me.

[ January 02, 2005, 10:38 AM: Message edited by: peter d ]
 
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