Strapping of EMT

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Re: Strapping of EMT

With this post I shall say no more. I am not afraid to research anything. I have a desire to learn as much about the NEC as possible therefore when told something I try to find out myself before I speak. This post started about the use of tie wire being used as a means of support for EMT but has turned into a bashing of each other about what to call the inspector and the limit to his powers. One has said that in Co. there is no appeal; I found this to be not true. Another has stated Mass. Wrong. This goes to show that the only way to know for sure is do your own research.
http://www.mass.gov/dpl/boards/el/cmr/23721.htm
21.01: Purpose The Board of Electricians' Appeals, whose membership consists of the members of the State Examiners of Electricians, is established to hear appeals filed with the Board by any person aggrieved by a notice, interpretation, order, requirement, or direction of any local Inspector of Wires or other person charged with the enforcement of the rules and regulations of the Board of Fire Prevention Regulations (527 CMR).
Inspector" means the local Inspector of Wires appointed by any city or town in accordance with M.G.L. c. 166, ?32.
Massachusetts calls them INSPECTORS
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:
Massachusetts calls them INSPECTORS
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I never said otherwise, my posts included the very wording you just included.

What I did say is in MA the NFPA is not the AHJ in any capacity and that the NFPA is not where I go for appeals or interpretations.

I agree with you entirely that the local inspector in MA is not the AHJ and with a little searching on this site you can find where I have said that many times.

You talk about bashing, look at your posts, telling us all that we all do not understand the NEC or the NFPA. Many of us understand the rules a lot more than you are willing to admit.

Peace out, Bob
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Originally posted by jwelectric:
One has said that in Co. there is no appeal; I found this to be not true.
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I did not say that there was no appeal in Berthoud Colorado! I pitched the town of Berthoud out there as a frinstance, not as a case study. I figured they didn't have their own inspections, that they relied on state inspectors. I was posing a hypothetical. If I had thrown up Bumblef*** NJ, without realizing there was such a town, would you have thrown that at me as well?

In fact, your research proved my point: the building code in Berthoud CO clearly states my case...
Should any section or provision of this Code be declared by the courts to be unconstitutional or invalid, such decision shall not affect the validity of this Code as a whole or any part thereof, other than the part so declared to be unconstitutional or invalid.
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Did the NFPA draft the Constitution? Do they hold court? Granted, this is a building code, not NEC, but if it was good enough for you, I'll use it. I see no mention of the entity that created that building code being responsible for the interpretation of that code.

This post started about the use of tie wire being used as a means of support for EMT but has turned into a bashing of each other...
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If you feel bashed by something that myself or someone else has said, I apologize for my part, as I'm not intending to be hurtful. This just seems to me to be a highly unusual subject for discussion that hopefully will cast light on the issue in such a way that will enhance everyone's knowledge of how the world works. I see you're an instructor. If you venture into the field believing that the NFPA has "got your back" you're going to be in for disappointment. They do their job--making documents that the public can use or ignore as they see fit. That's where their job ends. You want a document clarifying what they intended when they created a code, they'll oblige. Their words are highly persuasive, but they aren't law.

An AHJ can create their own code independent of the NEC. But that AHJ must bear in mind that if they have an omission that results in the death, injury, or other bad effect in their jurisdiction, they bear a highly increased liability in the eyes of other entities. Example: If they forgot to mention that outdoor receptacles need GFI protection, and someone dies a death that could have been prevented by GFI protection, a lawyer will point to the national standard, the NEC, as a benchmark for installation requirements. That AHJ will pay dearly for the oversight if their lawyers cannot defend the omission.

I'll admit that I don't fully understand the jurisdictional issues that rule Colorado. This thread has heightened my interest in it, and if the interest holds, I'll study up on it. But I know the NFPA doesn't care about how Colorado runs it's state. I'll take that to the bank. :)
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Something i was taught 22 years ago has stuck with me.You might win the battle but lose the war.

So before you go over the inspectors head think it out... should you elect to take the ahj to court be sure you are ready for what can and will happen in the future.

If this is your your attitude I find it reprehensible!

If somebody disagrees with you they are completely within their rights to pursue any procedural or legal means available to them to get relief.

If an inspector uses threats of retaliation against someone considering going over their head it is the same ethically as taking bribes in my book.

If you tried that attitude with me I assure you that you wouldn't have your job for very long.

-Hal
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

jw, a little advice would be to slow down and read the others posts a little more closely before you reply. :D


Roger
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Let me start with an apology because I have taken everything to heart. I feel very strongly about these things. Just to let you know a little about me and why I feel so strong. I hold an Unlimited Electrical License, passed the Level Three Inspectors, qualified to teach the Standard Electrical Inspectors and have taught part time in the local community college for five years. I have put in my thirty years in the field and its time for easier things. I am a member of the NFPA and the IAEI. I have worked from NC to Fla. and have never backed down from an inspector.
You are right in that the NFPA is not going to call an inspector up on the phone but if that jurisdiction has adopted the NEC without amendments then they have to accept the interpretation of the NFPA or amend the interpretation. This is experience speaking because I have already walked this road. My name is well known at the Dept. of Insurance in Raleigh NC. Please forgive my slamming, I promise there is nothing personal directed toward anyone.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

JW,
I have to agree with you that tie wire can hold EMT a lot better than a 1 hole strap in most cases. I find it depends on who makes the strap, some manufactures are better than others.

I personally don't like to use it because I think it's a little faster to carry a pouch with straps and a battery drill around to fasten with.

If it works for you, and your jobs pass inspection, great! It's not common practice to use it around here (South-Eastern Connecticut), so I think if it was used it might have some of the inspectors questioning it.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

My step-dad was a grease monkey at one time, now he is president of a large trucking company.

In his wrench turning days, he could use tie-wire like McGyver used duct tape.

It was always a temporary fix for something.

I've used tie-wire to hold EMT in certain situations and it worked fine.

I personally just wouldn't like the look of it holding conduits to a piece of strut comming down a finished wall. Asthetically I'd rather see strut straps.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

You are right in that the NFPA is not going to call an inspector up on the phone but if that jurisdiction has adopted the NEC without amendments then they have to accept the interpretation of the NFPA or amend the interpretation.
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No, the local AHJ is not required to accept the interpretation of the NFPA. They have no authority over the local AHJ. It would be in the best interest of the local AHJ to accept the NFPA ruling, but they have no obligation to do so. Formal interpretations of the code by the NFPA do not become part of the code unless specifically adopted by the governmental unit that has adopted the code. 80.13(1) reserves the right of interpretation to the local AHJ. Granted that if the local AHJ does not accept an NFPA formal interpretation, it would likely be used against them if the AHJ's ruling would be challenged in court.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

I've used tie-wire to hold EMT in certain situations and it worked fine.

I personally just wouldn't like the look of it holding conduits to a piece of strut comming down a finished wall. Asthetically I'd rather see strut straps.
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Yes!
Granted that if the local AHJ does not accept an NFPA formal interpretation, it would likely be used against them if the AHJ's ruling would be challenged in court.
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...And that AHJ would look very foolish. Amen.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

NFPA "Formal Interpretations"(FI) for the NEC are few and far between. The ones that do exist are in the back of the 2002 and 2005 Code books.

Since the 2005 revision of 250.50 the set of FIs has been reduced to two.

All other interpretations you may have received from the NFPA are staff opinions. Very knowledgeable opinions, but opinions none the less. I have in my possession two written, contradictory staff opinions.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Wow, generated a lively topic. Thanks for all the discussion and information. Interesting digression on AHJ instead of tie wire.
The installation generating the question used tie wire on vertical runs in metal studs. All other locations used straps, anchors, etc.
To summarize the discussion as I see it, it seems that most installers feel confident in using tie wire to "securely fasten" EMT and are confident that this method complies with the intent of the Code that EMT be securely fastened and supported. My question about finding it in the Code seems to have reverted to whether it is an approved method. It seems that it is not prohibited or permitted specifically in the Code except per the AHJ. Section 300.11 seems concerned with above ceiling installation.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

WOW! That did get very interesting regarding AHJ's. Speaking as one, I rejected a job last year for tie wire. My reason was based on experience. Over the years, I would use tie wire for concrete pours, and if the tie wire was twisted too tight, it just snapped. It is impossible to tell how tight is too tight until it is too late. Is the wire on the verge of snapping with one jar or tug? When you double up the wire (as most people do), how can you get the exact same tension on both wires? If one snaps, the support is gone. I will put it in my amendments this year, however, to make that gray area black in my jurisdiction! I like to be challenged, and I have backed off when proven wrong. We all need to have an open mind and be willing to learn. Have a great day!
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

ok look at it this way,if doubled one is not as tight as the other.So at least one is likely to be far from breaking.Chances of both snapping is slim.And we all have seen plenty of straps that come lose.I think the only reason tie wire has not been listed is cause nobody sees the almighty buck in doing so.Has nothing to do with it working.
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

i've been following for the whole thread and didn't feel that either side advanced anything new until Cmes.. pointed out that tie wire, which comes commonly in both #15 and #16, can be easily "burned", or tightened too far. With that thought, i think i would fail the install as i would if it were installed with string or duct tape.

paul :)
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Apparently none of your have worked in plaster and metal lath commercial buildings.

Entire plaster ceilings are supported by small tie wires. I am not talking about 12 AWG ceiling wire like a suspended ceiling I am talking about the small wire like the rebar guys use.

The small tie wires hold the metal lathe to steel frame work which is bound together with more of the tie wire.

I walk on these ceilings and I am no light weight. :)
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Do you really believe that if doubled both will snap ? As to how one determines when to stop is similar to hammering a romex staple.
Has anyone seen plastic tie wraps used to hold emt ? No we don't do that but i did see it done in a store buildout and it passed :roll:
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Would you pass a listed 1 hole strap attached with a toggle bolt to drywall ? or to that ceiling Bob is talking about ? Keep in mind the weakist link.
I am willing to bet if i fasten a piece of 3/4 emt to some stuctial ceiling beams (one on each end of maybe 4 feet of emt) that it can hold my weight (195 lbs) I would not even try this with 2 straps.

[ January 03, 2005, 06:55 PM: Message edited by: jimwalker ]
 
Re: Strapping of EMT

Bob,
I do know, and that is the main reason I would not red tag tie wire supported conduit. I've walked on those plaster and metal lath ceilings that were held together by #18 tie wire. As a matter of fact, the few EMT jobs where I used tie wire, we bought a box of the same wire that the ceiling guys were using. Of course, as with anything workman ship does make a difference and if not done correctly, the tie wire is not a good support, but that applies to any type of support.
Don
 
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