Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

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snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Dumb question- is there a way to contact listers off the list?
I'd like to keep in touch with Wayne A, Turk27, since I rarely run into guys this sharp.

Bruce McCreary
Snowflake, Az
rbmcc@cybertrails.com
 

karl riley

Senior Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Bruce, calculating net current magnetic fields is simple, since they weaken directly with distance. You measured 0.5 mG at 100'. So 0.25 mG at 200', 0.125 mG at 400', etc.

To determine the amps of net current, work this backwards until you get to about 1 meter: 1.0 mG at 50', 2mG at 25', 4mG at 12.5', 8mG at 6.25', 16mG at 3.125' (close to a meter). Then use the simple formula, mG = 2i/m. 2i =16mG/1; i = 8A
Of course these are line-of-sight measurements, so you have to compensate for the angle when you are pacing on the ground.

Will email you about my possible RV route, maybe in May.

Have you measured current on your grounding electrode conductor yet?

Karl
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Thank's for the flowers But I'm way behind others in understanding the the effects of magnetic field's.
I have your E-mail and will e-mail you But I must warn that having you e-mail posted on this site invites trouble down the line as spams can use e-mail harvesters to get it and virus will also use it too so It's not a good idea to have posted. I would remove it.
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Karl, Your method for net current calculation based on magnetic field readings will be a big help for me. Thank you! I haven't gotten a call back from the power co. supervisor re: checking the neutral conductor current, but will follow up on that here.

I hope your travel plans will work out so we can meet. You have other fans here, too, so perhaps we can do a little community BBQ with you.


Wayne, Thanks for the email. I really appreciate your thoughts on my alternate grounding scheme.

Bruce
 

dereckbc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Plano, TX
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Snflbruce, I have been watching this post since yesterday and have been reluctant to post because I am somewhat confused by your description of the problem. You use the term wye distribution, but your description of the systems sounds like a single phase plus the neutral. So I may be off base with my comments.

I use to work for a utility as a transmission engineer several years back so my memory is a little fuzzy, but I will give it a shot. Rural areas as you have described are typically owned and operated by REA cooperative utility companies which are subsidized by the government. In other words there is no real profit. It is typical for REA?s to use a single phase 7.2Kv lateral line to distribute to rural customers. And as you stated each home has their own transformer.

All electric utilities multi ground the neutral for two primary reasons. 1. Safety of electric personnel. If they did not MGN then there would be considerable voltage drop from the sub-station transformer to the far end of the lateral, and to provide termination of arrestors along the length. 2. Economics. Earth is far less expensive than copper. And at 7.2 KV earth can be used as a conductor.

With that said I do not see how you could use a delta input with only a single phase. So you have me a little confused. If you had 3-phase distribution, then you could get a delta transformer with 208Y/120 output. But that would cause the consumer with some challenges (financial and technical) with balancing and maybe some appliance interfaces. However the utility would still have to carry a MGN to carry the imbalance. So I do not see a solution with using delta in the manner in which you described.

A utility could possible use a spark gap arrestor to connect the primary and secondary neutrals, but that would leave the utility a problem with leaving the secondary neutral with an isolated ground if they did not use their pole ground, or rely on the customer ground. A utility is not going to rely on a customer ground or have an isolated ground. NESC rules prohibit it.

Another solution would be for the utility to supply the ground from the transformer, and not have a N-G bond at the service entrance. That would solve the problem of current flow from the service back to the transformer. But the utility is not going to take that responsibly, nor would the NESC or NEC allow for such an arrangement.

Now lets say you used you method or mine to eliminate ground current from the secondary of the service transformer to the service disconnect. You would still have current flow from the MGN on the distribution system. The distributions system is responsible for the lion?s share of ground current, and not the service drop itself.

The whole electrical distribution system is based on using earth as a conductor. It goes back to the earliest days. It is an antiquated system, and would cost billions to upgrade. Rate payers will not stand for it, not to mention you appliances might have to be changed. But it is possible. Utilities do use a true delta for transmission between sub-stations, but is not possible for distribution because the utility cannot balance the commercial loads in a single phase world.

One method I like for single phase is a balanced system which does not require a neutral, but currently it can only be applied to limited areas. Now that?s the rest of the story.

Dereck
 

hurk27

Senior Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

By Dereck: A utility could possible use a spark gap arrestor to connect the primary and secondary neutrals, but that would leave the utility a problem with leaving the secondary neutral with an isolated ground if they did not use their pole ground, or rely on the customer ground. A utility is not going to rely on a customer ground or have an isolated ground. NESC rules prohibit it.
Why can't a TVSS system be engineered that would fault any over voltage current back to the MGN? This would have the utility depending on their MGN and not the buildings GE. If you placed a TVSS across the bond but have the drain to the MGN if a winding to winding fault were to occur the TVSS would cause a low impedance path to the MGN keeping the service neutral isolated. Also if the transformers had the same shielding that is required for low voltage isolation transformers and this shield was bonded to the MGN then the winding to winding fault would be history.
I'm just asking to learn as the way it is now, has always troubled me.
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Derek,
Arizona Public Service Co. is our local service provider. Costs of any changes in this local area to reduce ground current are proposed to APS to be born by the property owners. APS is one of the the largest power providers in the state and has a healthy bottom line at present. In fact the corporation commission reduced rates recently. So this isn't a case of expecting something for nothing from a "poor starving" power co., and frankly billions over a decade or so wouldn't be $1 on the power bill. We just need to start figuring out the solution, and a way to phase it in sanely. Based on more recent studies, we'll all come out ahead financially by dealing with it. Medical costs are skyrocketing.

I understand that the earth is a "free" conductor. Alas, it's not free to those affected by ground current and there are few places left to avoid it. Those who do EMF mitigation work have met some good folks whose lives have been profoundly affected. I think if we put our heads together, we could come up with a workable solution.

What I'd like to do is come up with a practical and safe grounding approach that could be used in rural areas around folks with serious health problems aggravated by ground current. What I've seen here is that even slow growth of the power service area has increased ground current significantly. Only near the very end of service lines is it avoidable, and alas the ends keep moving on. The same people who can't handle the constant low level magnetic fields from ground current are usually chemically injured and can't use propane, making off grid living impractical.

Some of your statements also have me confused. In areas where secondary distribution lines are delta, it's my understanding that two hot wires (single phase and 10KV in this area) are run instead of the 7.2KV line and neutral and therefore at the delta 220V secondary, the center tap is earthed to provide a ground. If this is safe and widely used, what's wrong with using the same (secondary derived neutral) approach elsewhere?

According to my local APS supervisor, some of his service area lines are in fact wired as delta- two hots and no neutral on the poles, with a site (secondary) derived neutral.

This is exactly what I'd like to do in this area, "pretending" that the neutral is a hot phase, but using it for the TVSS connection to the secondary winding.

In this setup, the tranformer secondary is earthed twice, once at the transformer (powerco), and then at the meter panel. These will not cause a big net current problem and there will be no net current induced on the transmission lines. Powerco guys sometimes forget that a transformer will stop net current (another form of ground loop), if only it is NOT jumped around by the "ground tie". It really does, we EE circuit designers with some EMC background use it all the time in analog and communications circuit design. The physics don't change just because the the scale is much larger.

Ground rods for lightning and surge protection along the power lines could certainly be used with TVSS devices instead of hard wiring, and without introducing much ground current (they would generate some capacitive losses)- but the need for constant grounding of the neutral phase seems more like a bad compulsion than science. And I just don't understand how it enhances safety, though I'd like to!

I think your balanced line concept (which I'd like to hear more about) sounds to me like what I know as a delta distribution. Delta is all the same phase, and only a single voltage normally no neutral, though some delta systems have one leg grounded, to further confuse things.

Bruce McCreary
 

dereckbc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Plano, TX
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Originally posted by hurk27:
Why can't a TVSS system be engineered that would fault any over voltage current back to the MGN?
It can be, all that is needed is a market for them. I think it would have to be a gas or spark gap type. MOV or SAD wouldn't be appropiate materials because they are prone to failure. Same thing for a shielded transformer, all you need is a market.
 

dereckbc

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Plano, TX
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Originally posted by snflbruce:
If this is safe and widely used, what's wrong with using the same (secondary derived neutral) approach elsewhere?

It really does, we EE circuit designers with some EMC background use it all the time in analog and communications circuit design. The physics don't change just because the scale is much larger.

Ground rods for lightning and surge protection along the power lines could certainly be used with TVSS devices instead of hard wiring, and I just don't understand how it enhances safety, though I'd like to!
You can use two hot phase?s to drive a transformer if they are available, otherwise you use one ungrounded, and one grounded. Depends on how the utility designed/installed the system in your area.

I am one of those EE designer nerds for a communications company. I understand analog, digital, and RF communications. Currently I design/build AC/DCUPS electrical power distribution systems, protective grounding, and lightning protection systems for a telephone company. There is a better way, and in the industrial end of the spectrum we break the loops by using 480 delta systems, then use isolation and step down transformers. For residential that is not a feasible or practical approach. For residential and commercial you would need to change the architectural approach by doing away with a grounded circuit conductor, but still have a grounded system to provide safety and stabilize system voltages by shorting out the capacitive component.

IMO the MGN system will never go away in our life time. In fact there are systems being developed and in use right now that use earth as a circuit conductor called a SWER system. It is deployed in Utah, Alaska, and Australia. The SWER system is intended as a low cost transmission and distribution system. It uses a single hot conductor for distribution, and earth as the return conductor. I do not like it, but there none the less.

The MGN does enhance safety for electrical personnel. If you did not have a MGN the voltage drop along the neutral would become significant the further away you get from the transformer. With the current 3-phase architecture, the neutral is needed to carry the imbalance of the commercial load. That is the problem with an unbalanced system. There are other ways, but the whole electrical system would have to be re-built.

If you would like to know more about balanced systems read NEC 647 to give you an idea. In analog terms it like comparing a differential mode to common mode.
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

There is a better way, and in the industrial end of the spectrum we break the loops by using 480 delta systems, then use isolation and step down transformers. For residential that is not a feasible or practical approach. For residential and commercial you would need to change the architectural approach by doing away with a grounded circuit conductor, but still have a grounded system to provide safety and stabilize system voltages by shorting out the capacitive component.
Yes, I'm familiar with this arrangement of a separately derived neutral from step down transformer after a 480V delta transformer.

What I don't understand is, why can't the same thing be done via the single transformer already existing on this 7.2KV line. The issue is to break up the ground current loops to reduce net current alone the distribution lines- and this would do it.

IMO the MGN system will never go away in our life time. In fact there are systems being developed and in use right now that use earth as a circuit conductor called a SWER system. It is deployed in Utah, Alaska, and Australia. The SWER system is intended as a low cost transmission and distribution system. It uses a single hot conductor for distribution, and earth as the return conductor. I do not like it, but there none the less.
You're probably right about MGN, and SWER is downright insane from a public health perspective. I hadn't heard about SWER. Like SEWER but missing an "e". Hmm.

With the current 3-phase architecture, the neutral is needed to carry the imbalance of the commercial load. That is the problem with an unbalanced system. There are other ways, but the whole electrical system would have to be re-built.
I want to change the grounding practice one one small section of the rural line to break up ground current loops. I don't want to change the wires or transformers, just the grounding, mostly removing it. If the voltage of the neutral raises significatly, then tag the poles and the line crews should just treat it as another hot phase. No different from a delta pair. As long as the neutral is derived separately at the secondary side of the residential transformer, what's the problem?

Thanks for your thoughtful and knowledgeable contribution.

Bruce McCreary
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Bruce: Your ideas are admirable, however they fall in the "been there, done that," category.

I have worked in two locations, in the world, that earth grounding could not be done.

One is the South Pole Research Station in Antarctica. The other is the Sahara Desert in Libya.

The earth, being a common impedance, must be connected to a electrical system to insure control of potential charges.
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Bennie, that's prime baloney. The secondary derived neutral is earthed. No one has suggested a floating system.
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

So, here's some more;

How are you proposing to contain a (high to low) fault at the distribution transformer?

All transformers will fail, the first failure is usually in the winding to winding mode. Then the failure develops into a line to ground fault.
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Bernie, maybe you can tell us how a transformer failure is handled in a delta system.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Bruce, "Bennie" is spelled with two key strokes on the "n".

Roger
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Thanks Roger ;)

Bruce: If you are referring to an ungrounded delta secondary, to a premises service.

The end user transformer will be a delta/delta isolation transformer, primary and secondary voltage will be the same.

The primary will be a grounded delta, by installation of grounding transformers.

The grounding transformers will detect a through fault,and activate a network protector clearing device.
 

roger

Moderator
Staff member
Location
Fl
Occupation
Retired Electrician
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

You're welcome Bennie.

Roger
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Sorry for mispelling your name Bennie.

You dodged my question. Let me try again: How is the delta powerco transformer with say 10KV primary and 480V secondary set up to protect from a primary to secondary short?

The delta industrial site protection systems which detect a leg of the delta system being shorted to ground I am familiar with, but this is not the high voltage fault situation we were discussing.

Are you suggesting an active monitering system for primary to seconary shorts or are you just being contrary for sport?

Bruce McCreary
 

bennie

Esteemed Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Contrary for sport? No, I work at it ;)

Bruce: A medium voltage primary to a low voltage secondary, when configured in delta/delta, will have zig zag of wye grounding transformers on the high side.

A fault to the low side will be seen by one winding of the grounding transformer. This will be created by a reverse power flow from low to high at the transformer.

When this event is detected, the network protector will trip and ground out the line section.
 

snflbruce

Member
Re: Stray Neutral Current along Wye distribution lines

Bennie, Just what I needed. I'm trying to find more info on zig-zag grounding transformers, but haven't been able to find a schematic showing them in a typical circuit. Could you suggest a source or email me a schematic?

I'm beginning to see the problem- all the gear for creating a derived neutral is only used on large industrial sites.

I did run into some voltage tripped breakers that look like they might do the trick for secondary protection, but a TVSS sure seems like a cheaper and more reliable solution. Even if it took multiple units to get high enough reliability against failed opens (failed short would cut service and would be detected).

My education continues...
 
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