Stupid question or stupid inspector?

G

ggunn

PE (Electrical), NABCEP certified
Location
Austin, TX, USA
Occupation
Consulting Electrical Engineer - Photovoltaic Systems
A friend of mine called me the other day to tell me that an inspector failed a commercial PV system project because he made a supply side interconnection in a gutter. What??? I have been retired for a while now, but I designed many systems interconnected to service conductors in gutters; did something change in the 2023 NEC that would make such a connection noncompliant?
 
As long as 230.7 is met I am not sure what the issue would be, I always politely ask inspectors for a code reference, your friend should ask for one.
 
tortuga said:
As long as 230.7 is met I am not sure what the issue would be, I always politely ask inspectors for a code reference, your friend should ask for one.
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That's what I thought, and you answered my question. Thanks.
 
jaggedben said:
No.
(Not per se, anyway. Maybe it's actually something else? Like 230.46? Or not sizing the gutter adequately.)
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The inspector was quoted to me as saying, "How many times do I have to tell you guys that you cannot make a PV connection in a gutter?" Um, how about once, and then you'd be wrong?
 
UNless these electricians don't challenge the inspector then he will never get it and will continue to hit others on it.
 
Inspector could be enforcing a POCO policy, or ggunn has said his area has locations where the AHJ is the POCO (municipal utility).

Is there any reason that a POCO might have a policy on gutters after the meter? I could understand a prohibition on before the meter, but not after.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Dennis Alwon said:
Unless these electricians don't challenge the inspector then he will never get it and will continue to hit others on it.
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There is a movement afoot among some of the PV system integrators in that jurisdiction to address this and similar issues.
 
wwhitney said:
Inspector could be enforcing a POCO policy, or ggunn has said his area has locations where the AHJ is the POCO (municipal utility).

Is there any reason that a POCO might have a policy on gutters after the meter? I could understand a prohibition on before the meter, but not after.
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Yes, it is a municipally owned utility. There is no POCO published policy that I have been able to find that prohibits making a 705.11 PV interconnection in a gutter on the customer side of the meter, and why would there be?
 
At a conference they talked about this being an issue but I can't remember the exact code reference used. There is supposed to be a fix in the 2026.

Was it 300.3, and conductors rated over 1000V? I can't remember.

*** I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about DC conductors. My fault.
 
Just the usual ancient Brit here. again. As some of you probably know my field is industrial power electronics. For that we do dot have electrical inspectors, For matter I don't think we have them for residential properties. Maybe I'm missing something here?
 
Besoeker3 said:
For matter I don't think we have them for residential properties. Maybe I'm missing something here?
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You have commented on this before, and a quick check looks like its Part P of the UK Building Regulations, according to part 3.1 an Electrical Contractor (EC) in England can either
3.1 For notifiable electrical installation work, one of the following three procedures must be used to
certify that the work complies with the requirements set out in the Building Regulations.
a. Self-certification by a registered competent person.
b. Third-party certification by a registered third-party certifier.
c. Certification by a building control body.
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In all cases (a) (b) or (c) some paper work is filed with your local 'building control body' we call authority having jurisdiction (AHJ).
If a EC in England does not employ a 'registered competent person' then they have to do (b) or (c).
the qualifications to become a 'registered competent person' are similar to inspector qualifications here, so really its like a EC can employ their own inspectors. Its not like a journeyman can inspect her own work.

Here in the US we mostly have (b); third party inspectors and (c); local inspectors.
Here utilities do tend to self certify utility work most of them have a person similar to (a).
There are some large industrial plants that also get permission to do self certification.

Inspection and testing of non-notifiable work
3.13 Non-notifiable electrical installation work, like notifiable work, should be designed and installed, and
inspected, tested and certificated in accordance with BS 7671.
3.14 If local authorities find that non-notifiable work is unsafe and non-compliant, they can take
enforcement action
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What you guys call notifiable work is pretty much what most AHJ here have as a threshold for requiring a permit. All electrical work in the UK has to conform to your electrical code BS 7671.
cheerio 😁
 
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tortuga said:
What you guys call notifiable work is pretty much what most AHJ here have as a threshold for requiring a permit. All electrical work in the UK has to conform to your electrical code BS 7671.
cheerio 😁
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Well...........
"An installer who is not a competent person ........"

I think we would have to be a competent person to do what we do.........
 
Besoeker3 said:
Well...........
"An installer who is not a competent person ........"

I think we would have to be a competent person to do what we do.........
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www.gov.uk

Competent person schemes

Join a competent person scheme to self-certify certain types of building work instead of getting building regulations approval from a council or private inspector - how to join, current schemes
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
 
ggunn said:
The inspector was quoted to me as saying, "How many times do I have to tell you guys that you cannot make a PV connection in a gutter?" Um, how about once, and then you'd be wrong?
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Reminds me of a recent incident a friend of mine had with an inspector. It was a DADU and the inspector said a DADU needed "it's own service" (it wasn't really clear if he meant actually served by a separate service, or its own meter or what - none of which are required in this jurisdiction). Then he said, "this is basic stuff." Like EXACTLY, that we can agree on! 🙄
 
Besoeker3 said:
We, including Mike Holt's Forum, are electrical guys, not building guys.
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Sure but I am not talking about what kinda guys we are I am talking about who regulates electrical installations in England, if you look at your building regulations in part 1 definitions paragraph (2) we see the definition of 'building work', 'controlled service or fitting' and 'electrical installation' , then you can see they do regulate electrical installations very similar to here.
Then if you click to the next page and scroll down you can see all the electrical competent person schemes:
www.gov.uk

Competent person scheme - current schemes and how schemes are authorised

Find out about current competent person schemes to self-certify certain types of building work if you work in building as an installer.
www.gov.uk www.gov.uk
And once your registered you can look up a competent electrician here:
 
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electrofelon said:
Reminds me of a recent incident a friend of mine had with an inspector. It was a DADU and the inspector said a DADU needed "it's own service" (it wasn't really clear if he meant actually served by a separate service, or its own meter or what - none of which are required in this jurisdiction). Then he said, "this is basic stuff." Like EXACTLY, that we can agree on! 🙄
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Where I have ran into AHJ problems over the years is feeding a (DADU) dwelling unit from a feeder is 240.24(B)(1) each occupant shall have access to their service equipment.
 
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