Sub Feed Ground

Status
Not open for further replies.
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by iwire:
So I must assume you do not install any services as they are dangerous?
Click to expand...
Hang on, Bob. :)

Under 250.32(A)(1) how do you know the EGC is intact?
Click to expand...
On a normal service, with interconnected metal water pipe electrodes between neighboring services, how do you know the neutral is intact?

I'd say, that question offsets yours. It's even. :)
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Under 250.32(A)(1) how do you know the EGC is intact?
Click to expand...
On a normal service, with interconnected metal water pipe electrodes between neighboring services, how do you know the neutral is intact?

I'd say, that question offsets yours. It's even. :)
Click to expand...
Actually if the neutral opens everything that service feeds acts strangely alerting the occupants that they need service.

As I said I pull EGCs, all I am trying to do i to get you to think differently. Think outside the box as Bennie taught me to do.
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by iwire:
Actually if the neutral opens everything that service feeds acts strangely alerting the occupants that they need service.
Click to expand...
Why would the service behave strangely, if house "A" has a metal water pipe running out to the main, to the neighbor's water pipe, and it's electrically continuous back to his neighbor's neutral bus? It would be as undetected as a broken EGC would be. :D

I think Bennie was right, the best solution is double-insulate everything and forget about it. But we only have the hand we are dealt, and here and now, we have EGC's or bust. :D
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Why would the service behave strangely, if house "A" has a metal water pipe running out to the main, to the neighbor's water pipe, and it's electrically continuous back to his neighbor's neutral bus? It would be as undetected as a broken EGC would be. :D
Click to expand...
No, I do not.

What I do know is that for a guy that has only wired houses for a few years your pretty cocky. :roll:
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

What I do know is that for a guy that has only wired houses for a few years your pretty cocky. :roll:
Click to expand...
I've been stewing. On second thought, I'm not sorry. I have had a twinkle in my eye throughout this conversation, and if you couldn't see it, that makes me feel bad but it's not my fault.

I thank everybody here for making me understand more about how things work, and on top of that list is you. How have you taught me? By questioning the questionable things myself and others say. I expect to get broadsided now and then, and actually appreciate when my world gets flipped over.

I have presented ideas in a professional manner, and you called me a name. I don't think it's the first time. I don't appreciate it. I do need a good dose of humility now and then, because I do have a tendency to get a big head. I appreciate that you feel comfortable enough to deal me one.

I got a big head flippin' burgers, I got a big head stacking newspapers, and on occasion, when things are good, I get a big head roping houses and talking shop. I recognize that it's something I have to keep an eye on, because I don't want to be one of "those guys." Those guys who look down and help because it makes them feel smarter than the next guy. It's ridiculous for a guy in my shoddy place in life to believe I've got a leg up on anybody.

I don't believe I deserved that rebuke in this context.

You've been doing this nearly since I was born, and I respect that. Most of the guys here have. Most the guys who post questions here probably have. But I am not going to let "pecking order" keep me from letting someone know there's another way of thinking.

I know I don't have all the answers. None of us do. I don't think I deserve a slap in the face for my opinion.

Sorry for being hurtful, but that stung a bit.
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

George, it is just my opinion, don't worry about if you disagree.

You also know I think you have a bright future in this trade I have said as much on this forum.

Bob
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Mike Holt, Grounding Versus Bonding Online Newsletter #18:
CAUTION: Using the grounded neutral conductor as the effective ground-fault current path poses potentially dangerous consequences and should only be done after careful consideration. Even if the initial installation doesn?t result in dangerous objectionable current on metal parts, there remains the possibility that a future installation of metal piping or cables between the buildings or structures could create unwanted parallel neutral current paths.

Author?s Comment: The preferred practice (or at least my preferred practice) is to not use the grounded neutral conductor as the effective ground-fault current path, but to install an equipment grounding (bonding) conductor with the feeder conductors to the building or structure in accordance with 250.32(B)(1).
Click to expand...
Opinion, perhaps, but a more educated one than my own.
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Bob,

Do you believe the conclusions I came to in this post were misleading? Exaggerating?

Granted, that was about poles, this is about outbuildings, but the concepts interchange readily enough. (Sorry the linked post is so long.)

[ January 17, 2006, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: georgestolz ]
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by georgestolz:
Bob,

Do you believe the conclusions I came to in this post were misleading? Exaggerating?
Click to expand...
What I believe is that your stuck in one frame of mind and refusing to see that each system has draw backs.

If your mind is closed your not learning.

Pay attention to Bryan's posts, he has done a lot of research on grounding.

Did you see me say that I do not pull an EGC?

I could apply 230.32(B)(2) to site poles, but I never have.

I could apply 250.32(B)(2) to my own garage but I did not.

What I did say is that in a certain specific circumstances I can see using the grounded as the grounding means (as is done with almost every meter enclosure in America) is a viable option.

FWIW Charlie E has stated he believes 250.32(B)(2) should be removed and that is coming from a guy that uses the grounded conductor for grounding every day. :)

I would not shed a tear if it was removed as I think it can only lead to confusion, but considering the purpose of the NEC a valid safety concern should be what takes it out of the NEC.

Simple question.

Why do you believe it is more likely for a neutral to open than an EGC?

[ January 17, 2006, 04:48 AM: Message edited by: iwire ]
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Bob,
I would not shed a tear if it was removed as I think it can only lead to confusion,
Click to expand...
Are you trying to put the forum out of business? If we don't keep the confusing sections in the code there will be no need for the forum. :D
Don
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by iwire:
What I believe is that your stuck in one frame of mind and refusing to see that each system has draw backs.

If your mind is closed your not learning.
Click to expand...
But that's the beauty of being feeble minded, I get stuck fairly infrequently. :)
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

When feeding the panel in a detached building and not installing an equipment grounding conductor is the feeder required to originate in the main panel or can it originate from another sub panel?

Reference: 250.140 Exception and the landing of the circuit in the main panel.
:confused:
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

Originally posted by jwelectric:
When feeding the panel in a detached building and not installing an equipment grounding conductor is the feeder required to originate in the main panel or can it originate from another sub panel?

Reference: 250.140 Exception and the landing of the circuit in the main panel.
:confused:
Click to expand...
Ain't nobody gonna answer?
 
Re: Sub Feed Ground

225.30 mentions supplied from the load side of the service disconnecting means...

250.32 does not mention where the connection in the building supplying the second building is to be made.

I do not see the NEC saying the second structure is required to be supplied by a service panel.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top